RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem?

RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem?
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RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/13/2008 6:18:44 PM

dick Hanson

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From: slc, UT, USA
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for the heat challanged - that is too hot to hold
or bath in

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RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/14/2008 1:31:20 AM

mtwister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCPilot100

Sorry, but stuff did get deleted.

"The message you posted in Futaba Radios Direct support forum (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/tt.asp?forumid=125),
titled: " RE: 2.4 receivers exposed to high heat" has been deleted.
Reason:not a discussion forum, please use general forum if you would like to discuss this"

as sent to me by kzhunt@hobbico.com

Below is what I posted and saved to Word:

RE: 2.4 receivers exposed to high heat - 5/10/2008 8:28:00 AM

RCPilot100

Posts: 567
Joined: 1/12/2002
From: Chelsea, MI, USA
Status: online
Unbelievable is all I can think of. I lost a Carden Extra due to the problems with the early 8UAF Tx problem which everyone in the business knew about - just not me - just got my 12Z with 2.4 Ghz module a month ago - and now I find out it is useless in my new 35% Edge 540 until Futaba figures out what to do. What really irks me is that Futaba knows who I am - what I bought from them - and yet fails to warn me not to use the system - that if I did use it on a sunny day I would most likely trash my new plane. Like I started out - Unbelievable!

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Post #: 15

You're from Michigan, what do you have to worry about heat for? Geez man, lighten up. The 12Z is about the best radio out there, and so is the rx that comes with them. I've had mine in 100 degree plus ambient temps and never even had a glitch. You're not the only one flying high $$$ equipment with this radio. Far from it. Too me, the post that you pasted and copied was silly and deserved removal. It completely lacked credibility.

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Post #: 27

RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/14/2008 1:42:12 AM

rustypep

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From: Powell, OH, USA
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Well said

Also, receivers failing at 170 and 200 degrees when the manual says to stay under 140 degrees? What is the world coming to

I knew those cooling fans in my computer were for more than just show and making noise. As dust, grime and time works its way into the hardware, those numbers will deteriorate futher so just because you don't have problems now is not surprising. It will be interesting to see what happens over the course of several years.

It would be interesting to see at what temperature a sample from each brand would fail without their rx cases. I am guessing both would be closer to each other and noticeably lower. If the JR case is indeed thicker and providing an R factor, than it is possible you might be looking at an apples to apples comparison without the case which means everyone has the same issue and should take precautions. That would also provide a simple solution to Futaba. I am not one to run my engines lean so I avoid doing the same to my rx.

quote:

People still don't get it. You are not dealing with old style crystal controlled radio receivers anymore. The FASST Rx is a IC controlled piece of Computer Network Hardware that is way more sensitive to environmental influence. It dies when it gets too hot. Just like your Laptop when it would sit under a focusing canopy in the sun for hours. At least the FASST system goes into shutdown with failsafe vice just going intermittant and sending random signals to the servos.

I agree that Futaba has underestimated the understanding of the new technology by the average model aircraft flyer and must supply more detailed instructions and warnings concerning the operation of the Network Hardware. Maybe provide internal shielding/heatsinks for the RX chipset. But until the 3rd generation 2.4 hardware comes to market, the current stuff is fine to use. Just think about the problem for a moment and then go to Walmart and buy a white towel to throw over your airplane/heli.

Fritz

< Message edited by rustypep -- 5/14/2008 1:43:16 AM >

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RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/15/2008 2:57:20 AM

RCPilot100

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It gets hot in Michigan - period. A receiver in an enclosed fuselage sitting under an EZ-Up still gets very hot. There are idiots in this state that leave kids in a locked car - and end up tried for murder.

My beef with Futaba goes back to the 7UA series when a cold solder joint in a receiver from a brand new package caused me to lose a fun fly plane. Then a poor engineering design in a 8UA series caused me to lose a 35% Carden. Futaba eventually fixed my gear and gave me a 9Z system - which has had to go back every year due to the elevator dual rates not working properly. So now the 2.4Ghz stuff comes out - I research - read the posts - have my doubts about Futaba, but after talking to the people at the Futaba display at Toledo, end up spending lots of coin for the 12Z. Then I end up finding out that they have another problem that has not been sorted out. Wonderful. I have lost faith in Futaba. There is a liability issue that I now worry about. Why and what you may ask. Ok, put the stuff in a plane - lose control - hit someone that brings on a huge lawsuit. Can't blame Futaba - I knew about it and flew at my own risk. In this sue happy society, I could end up greeting people at one of the Mart chains until I am buried. Maybe I am a bit paranoid about what could happen, but I still remember that 26 pound Carden flying along by itself - and not having any control over it. It left a big hole in the ground - and not someone. I don't want that to happen again.

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RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/15/2008 3:24:47 AM

mtwister

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From: Salem , OR, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCPilot100

It gets hot in Michigan - period. A receiver in an enclosed fuselage sitting under an EZ-Up still gets very hot. There are idiots in this state that leave kids in a locked car - and end up tried for murder.

My beef with Futaba goes back to the 7UA series when a cold solder joint in a receiver from a brand new package caused me to lose a fun fly plane. Then a poor engineering design in a 8UA series caused me to lose a 35% Carden. Futaba eventually fixed my gear and gave me a 9Z system - which has had to go back every year due to the elevator dual rates not working properly. So now the 2.4Ghz stuff comes out - I research - read the posts - have my doubts about Futaba, but after talking to the people at the Futaba display at Toledo, end up spending lots of coin for the 12Z. Then I end up finding out that they have another problem that has not been sorted out. Wonderful. I have lost faith in Futaba. There is a liability issue that I now worry about. Why and what you may ask. Ok, put the stuff in a plane - lose control - hit someone that brings on a huge lawsuit. Can't blame Futaba - I knew about it and flew at my own risk. In this sue happy society, I could end up greeting people at one of the Mart chains until I am buried. Maybe I am a bit paranoid about what could happen, but I still remember that 26 pound Carden flying along by itself - and not having any control over it. It left a big hole in the ground - and not someone. I don't want that to happen again.

A little paranoid? Sounds like maybe you should have made a switch to another brand of radio after the 8U. Funny, tens of thousands, if not more, Futaba 2.4 users are pretty satisfied.

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Post #: 30

RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/15/2008 3:33:56 AM

Dick T.

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From: Visalia, CA, USA
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I understand your frustration but it appears you are among folks who are lightning rods for radio problems. Call it bad luck, no luck or influential luck.

That being said I have owned Futaba gear for 25+ years, basic four channels up to the 14MZ, flown sport, electrics, 27% and 35% with nary a glitch nor failure, and it gets plenty hot here in central California.

Personally this temperature issue seems a bit overblown and somewhat self generated. Specs limit temp to 140 degrees. Doesn't take long for a little black box sitting in a direct sunlit greenhouse environment to achieve a surface temp similar to a baked potato. Others here have already mentioned the technology differences between older and new equipment.

Rather than joining in the carping at Futaba about their engineering flaws (as if we are all smarter than they are), why not move the stinking little receiver inside the fuse and when the outside temp seems hot, pack it up and go have a cool drink in the shade.

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RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/15/2008 4:15:27 AM

sirrom

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I have read this whole thread and I live in central florida and I have to tell you that I respect my airplanes and rc equipment enough to ensure that I don't let it sit out in the sun and get anywhere near 140 degrees in the airplane. I understand that the receiver quits at around 140 degrees but in reality why would you let your equipment get that hot? What do you want from futaba, operational temps of -200 degrees farenheit to 1200 degrees farenheit. This is the way I figure it, if it is too hot for me to be in the sun for long periods of time. It's too hot for my airplanes and equipment to sit out in the sun for long periods of time.

Lets use a little common sense folks.

Patrick

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RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/15/2008 11:32:00 AM

JL1

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From: Mason, MI, USA
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In my experience, unless you have eqiupment designed to military specifications or for industrial use, anything over 140 F is asking for trouble. I would guess that most, if not all, of our rc stuff is what we used to refer to as commercial grade and 140 was the upper limit for reliable operation.

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RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/15/2008 5:31:18 PM

mongo

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from the cypress site, the chip used in the spektrum systems is rated from 0-70 deg C.

WirelessUSB(TM) PRoC(TM) Flash Programmable MCU + Radio

Features

* Microcontroller with Mixed Signal Array
o Cypress M8C CPU
o CPU clock up to 12 MHz
o Internal oscillator-no crystal required
o 8-KB Flash Program Memory with EEPROM emulation
o 512 Bytes SRAM Data Storage
o 4 Analog Blocks Provide:
+ 2 Comparators with DAC Refs
+ Two 8-bit 28-Channel ADCs
o 4 Digital Blocks Provide:
+ 8- to 32-bit Timers, Counters, and PWMs
+ CRC and PRS module
+ Full-Duplex UART, SPI Master or Slave
+ Connectable to all GPIO pins
* 2.4-GHz DSSS radio transceiver
o Operates in the unlicensed Industrial, Scientific and Medical (ISM) band (2.4 GHz -2.483 GHz).
o -90 dBm receive sensitivity
o Up to 0 dBm output power
o Range of up to 50 meters or more
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o Highly integrated low cost, minimal number of external components required
o DSSS baseband controller
o 13-MHz crystal clock
o Integrated 30-bit Manufacturing ID
* Operating voltage from 2.7V to 3.6V
* Operating temperature from 0° to 70°C
* Offered in a small footprint 48 QFN

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RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/15/2008 5:47:15 PM

rajul

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The QFN packaging has an exposed copper pad (on which the silicon chip is attached) which improves the die heat dissipation if it is soldered properly to a copper thermal pad on the PCB. If there is insufficient solder or no solder between the die pad and the thermal pad, the heat dissipation will be poor. A variance in the solder volume could lead to some receivers more resistant to heat than others. Something for Futaba to look into.

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RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/15/2008 6:34:38 PM

tahustvedt

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Maybe the internal temperature of the receiver is higher than the temperature measured on the surface of the semi-transparent casing. The chip might be 70-80°C while the casing is 60°C.

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Post #: 36

RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/15/2008 6:55:21 PM

ira d

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It seems the 2.4 receivers are running hotter than the 72meg ones
and they are also smaller in most cases, IMO Futaba should have
foreseen the pontential problems and made sure the end user was
well informed of them.

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RE: is Futaba the only heat related problem? - 5/15/2008 7:08:49 PM

Silent-AV8R

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As has been pointed out numerous times the instructions for all the FASST radios clearly say to avoid extreme temperatures. 160 deg F is extreme in my book. But I suppose what you are really saying is that they should have spelled it out in terms of ambient or something.

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