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Composites - 5/13/2008 9:49:22 AM   
Backplate


 

Posts: 17
Joined: 1/12/2008
From: Christchurch International, NEW ZEALAND
Status: offline 		I cant beleive you guys aren't using composites in 424 Quickie racing.
The only arf on the market at the moment is the Viper, which would take longer
to put together than a composite racer! Stupidity when there are composites ready
available over there to race! Sure there would be some good woodies that will go as
fast as a composite, but the problem is that one must build several to get a good one.
All composites are the same & all work. I reckon most guys that race pylon would have
more money than time! This is why composites are the way to go.
       Post #: 1

RE: Composites - 5/13/2008 11:29:29 AM   
luv to race


 

Posts: 449
Joined: 12/10/2002
From: Liquored, FL,
Status: offline 		Back in the late 90's when composites hit the scene, lots of 424 flyers were using them. Then the perception came about that if you were not flying a composite airplane, you could not win and/or be competitive. Coupled with the high costs of the composite planes. Guys were starting to quit and move to other disciplines of R/C flying. Thusly....They wrote the rule that eventually outlawed composite planes.

So...the "no composites" rule in 424 Quickee racing is enforced as a way to keep the costs down. I don't think it has anything to do with performance, speed, or accuracy of the planes. History has shown that composites run from $400 to $750 price range, which is too much money for a "beginner" type class.

I think if someone had a composite kit, and sold them consistently in the $125 to $200 price range. Maybe the powers to be would reconsider the rule that outlaws the composite stuff, and rewrite the rule to allow them. As long as they were sold under a particular price.

Just my thoughts.

Randy Bridge

< Message edited by luv to race -- 5/13/2008 11:37:07 AM >

(in reply to Backplate)
       Post #: 2

RE: Composites - 5/13/2008 11:29:45 AM   
Ed Smith


 

Posts: 2807
Joined: 12/29/2001
From: Brantford, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		Whether I agree with the reasoning or not is a different discussion. However, 424 is looked upon as an entry level Pylon Racing event. It is felt that very few newcomers will spend $400.00 or so to start in an event they they may not like. To encourage new people to enter keep the event simple and as inexpensive as practical.

Ed S


(in reply to Backplate)
       Post #: 3

RE: Composites - 5/13/2008 8:51:56 PM   
bigtrev@xtra.co.nz


 

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: christchurch, NEW ZEALAND
Status: offline 		Dave, as Ed and Randy say the 424 is the beginner class- I don't think your comments were truly related to a beginner class - were they? trevor h

(in reply to Ed Smith)
       Post #: 4

RE: Composites - 5/13/2008 9:01:29 PM   
Backplate


 

Posts: 17
Joined: 1/12/2008
From: Christchurch International, NEW ZEALAND
Status: offline 		I see your guys point! but there is no difference in 428 quickie than 424 quickie. Both could use composites & fly in the same racers on the day but just switch over engines for the class of racing. A 424 composite would be no more exspense than 428, if any thing the 428 would be more exspensive than a 424 because of the brand of engine. Pehaps there should be a sportmans class for new beginners in pylon like we have here in New Zealand. I can not see composites getting any cheaper to buy than $400. If you are going to race & compete you should have the best & be allowed to use it! I myself dont fly your 428
class 1 because I would have to pay out Aleast $500/ 600 New Zealand dollars to get a Nelson or Jett engine! Where I can buy any 46 size engine for under $200 dollars. And the other reason is there is not enough guys racing it in New Zealand. I share every bodys thoughts.

(in reply to Backplate)
       Post #: 5

RE: Composites - 5/13/2008 9:10:26 PM   
vicman



Posts: 5912
Joined: 12/8/2002
From: Valdese, NC, USA
Status: online 		You are close but not exactly right. 424 can race 428 with an engine change but not the other way around.
424 does'nt allow composite wings.


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       Post #: 6

RE: Composites - 5/13/2008 11:23:49 PM   
garys


 

Posts: 732
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline 		As have been said by others, the reason 424 doesn't allow composites is the cost. Composite airplanes almost killed our entry-level event in the southwestern US a few years ago (you could count the number of contestents on one hand without using all your fingers). People felt that they NEEDED the composite airplane to be competitve, and didn't want to spend that much money for the entry level event, and quit. Others that were interested in trying, were put off because they wanted to at least be flying something competitve when they started, and couldn't justify the expense of composites just to try out the event. While a well built wood airplane can be competive, the perception is composites are faster. As soon as they were outlawed in the entry level event, participation increased, and is fairly well attended now.

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(in reply to vicman)
       Post #: 7

RE: Composites - 5/13/2008 11:46:02 PM   
fizzwater2


 

Posts: 676
Joined: 8/16/2004
From: Paola, KS, USA
Status: offline 		We've had two 424 only races in the Kansas City area in the last 3 weeks - 24 entries at one, 20 at another (even in the rain!). The cost of composites would have definitely kept several of the people from trying the races, if they felt they "needed" one to be competitive. The way to get more people to race is to keep the costs down, get them interested - then they can move to 428 or even 422 if they so desire.



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       Post #: 8

RE: Composites - 5/14/2008 12:05:57 AM   
scratchpc7



Posts: 126
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Olathe, KS, USA
Status: offline 		For what it is worth, and please correct me if I am wrong.

As I look at the AMA rules for 424 racing, the only mention of deviation from 428 racing is the wings and tail. It is my understanding that a composite fuselage is allowed, but the wings and tail need to be wood or wood over foam. So at least from that aspect, a glass fuse would speed up the build process somewhat and make straigher fuses, but the foam wings keep the cost down.

As to the comment about more money than time, I don't have much of either but I have less money. I know several others in my area who race and are in the same financial shape as I am. If I have to spend loads of money, I am out.

As a racer (I use the term lightly) who started 17 years ago and only raced a few times, who is now getting back into it, there is no way that I would start racing with a $500 composite winged aircraft. Yes, it might fly better, but until I can fly a tight course in the 1:20's, and keep up with the best racers in the class, having a top-notch aircraft won't matter a whole lot. In reality, if I want to stay racing in 424, I will probably be scratch building my own aircraft. because I know I will stuff a few

It is the same as purchasing a set to top-of-the-line Nike/Ping/Adams golf clubs when the best you can shoot is 120. It won't make you a better golfer, only one with more expensive equipment.

Those are my thoughts.
Doug

(in reply to garys)
       Post #: 9

RE: Composites - 5/14/2008 12:18:30 AM   
bigtrev@xtra.co.nz


 

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: christchurch, NEW ZEALAND
Status: offline 		I think what Dave is trying to say is that if you can afford to buy a composite aircraft- forget the circumstances- then why shouldn't you be allowed to do so.........and race it in any appropriate class. I know Dave pretty well and his heart is in pylon racing -he will tell you that he has limited time to build, but because of his employment circumstances is able to afford a composite.
Financial circumstances are different for all of us- he also understands that............perhaps he is also saying that 'is it right that those that can't afford a composite should be determining those that can'.
An interesting subject- personally I sit on the fence, regards Trevor H

(in reply to scratchpc7)
       Post #: 10

RE: Composites - 5/14/2008 12:36:03 AM   
scratchpc7



Posts: 126
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Olathe, KS, USA
Status: offline 		Hey Trevor,

I can understand what you are saying, but then comes the next issue. Pilot A can afford the best equipment, best aircraft, has two or three back-up aircraft. These aircraft come right in at the weight limit, fly perfectly, etc. Pilot B has one airplane that he built himself, no backup because he can't afford a second engine. Pilot B can never be competitive because his equipment just doesn't stack up. As Pilot B, I think at that point I will give up because I can't, or won't, spend lots of money to keep up.

AMA 424 racing is designed to help upstarts, like me, get involved in racing. As it is I am racing against folks who fly 428 at the National level. I can't keep up now, but at least I know it is not because I have an equipment handicap. If I keep with it, I hope to be able to challenge them someday.

However, 424 racing is an AMA event. Don't you gents in NZ have the option to make up your own rules and allow what you want in the racing classes?

Doug

(in reply to bigtrev@xtra.co.nz)
       Post #: 11

RE: Composites - 5/14/2008 12:49:04 AM   
bigtrev@xtra.co.nz


 

Posts: 249
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: christchurch, NEW ZEALAND
Status: offline 		Doug, a well thought out reply and one that I was anticipating arriving on the thread.........I don't know the answer to ones spending ability- let alone prioritising. I am self employed so I can work a few more hours to pay for my 'toys'.
Yes, we do have our own set of pylon rules, loosely based on the AMA rules- I suspect Dave (backplate) was trying to relate a circumstance that has cropped up here and referred to the AMA rules for a bit of guidance. Dave will no doubt comeback with his views later today.- currently its almost our lunch hour...........he swings a paintbrush for a living. Give him about 6-7 hours and he'll respond, regards to you all trevor H

(in reply to scratchpc7)
       Post #: 12

RE: Composites - 5/14/2008 12:59:24 AM   
Bill Vargas



Posts: 1522
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: Team Coldies, CA, USA
Status: offline 		I'd have to agree, composites in APRA/424 is not a good thing for the beginner class. Building a "woodie" is VERY simple and easy to do,,, it just takes a little bit of time to build and a little tutoring from the seasoned Racers.

But for the cost of a composite Quickee with a nice LS or a SS and if your looking to go Faster, you will go Faster flying Q40 with the same amount of money,,, in some cases for less,,, and they are easier to fly too


BV

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(in reply to bigtrev@xtra.co.nz)
       Post #: 13

RE: Composites - 5/14/2008 1:31:47 AM   
Jeff Pfeifer



Posts: 141
Joined: 9/30/2002
From: Bolivar, MO, USA
Status: offline 		I think 424 should definately stay as a wood and foam class to keep the cost down for everyone. This is the class that we need to keep as inexpensive as possible to get new blood in to racing. I realize that there are many that don't have the time to build from a kit or scratch, and the Viper/ Predator are good canidates they go together quickly, and fly pretty good once trimmed out. What I do believe the market needs is a larger selection of 424 legal ARFs that are in the $100-$200 range.

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(in reply to Bill Vargas)