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nine o nine -> TopGun photos (5/14/2008 1:47:18 AM)

I just saw the TopGun photos by Palmer Johnson on the Frank Tiano website. WOW!!!!!!
Mitch



Thrushdust -> RE: TopGun photos (5/15/2008 1:51:55 AM)

I agree!! All are excellent photos!
They are so clear you can see the individual puffs of exhaust of my Saito 1.80 in several of the pictures of the yellow/black/white crop duster on the Saturday and Sunday pages.

www.franktiano.com Top Gun '08 photos

D. Hayes



allmetal plane -> RE: TopGun photos (5/20/2008 2:05:51 AM)

Dear Trushdust..

What a beautiful your aircraft Trush is!!

Unfortunately I was not able to attend Top Gun this year with my 'tin' airplanes. I would have love to see your masterpi4ece and talk with you.
How did you manage to make the main wheels so realistic??

Carlos



Thrushdust -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 3:45:25 AM)

Thanks Carlos, noticed you were missing this year.

A local club member turned the basic wheels with attached brake discs for me on his home lathe from 3" aluminum barstock. Then I added the "extra" details and mounted them with the Dubro tires. Then there's the 5 years of wear and natural weathering.....



Ron S -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 3:58:00 AM)

Hi Thrush!
You have a great model - I thought it was great when you started spraying that stinky stuff out of the spraybars (I won't say what it was!) [8D] I was the guy with the F-107 model.

When I saw your model, one thing I thought you might want to consider simulating: You have 1 or 2 yellowish translucent panels which I assume is the spray tank, just ahead of the cockpit? What if that wall was actually double walled (say 1/8" apart?), and sealed around the perimeter? Then you could fill it with a viscous liquid (a lightweight oil?) about 1/3 the way, to give the effect of a partially filled spray tank? Just a thought - might take some experimenting...

Anyway, congrats with the win! [8D]



Thrushdust -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 1:22:40 PM)

Ron, Actually that is something that has been considered in the past, the hopper panels are translucent and have an additional panel behind them the to get the right color effect for static judging. Unfortunately my documentation photos show them "empty" and with a takeoff weight over 28lbs with the 10 oz of baby powder and 9 oz of CO2 used each flight to simulate the spraying passes I have to limit additional luxuries. I'd love to add the rest of a full cockpit too, but for every ounce I add there I have to add 3 in the nose and the Saito 1.80 it's built around is doing all it can now to keep us flying now.

Nice 107 too!
I like models that are different, to many of the jets are falling into the Extra/Edge/bellybutton category (everybody has one and they all look alike). Sorry for the odor, it's Barbee repellent!

D Hayes



abufletcher -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 3:24:32 PM)

Is it just me, or is that the worse DrI ever! How did that get in?



SDCrashmaster -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 5:32:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thrushdust

to many of the jets are falling into the Extra/Edge/bellybutton category (everybody has one and they all look alike).

D Hayes



You're kidding right? Jets are the smallest segment of the hobby. 99% of modelers can't afford one, yet you say everyone has one? So you weren't impressed with Ali's huge Citation, or the Mears/Schulman T-bird F-16, or any of the F-100's? To each their own I guess. I assume you approve of the penalty that was put on jets?
BTW, I thin your Thrush looks fantastic.
Paul



abufletcher -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 6:00:19 PM)

It does seem to be the same narrow selection of aircraff year after year. At times it seems like 20 aircraft make up 90% of everything seen at TopGun. It seems there are like 5 jets, 5 WWII warbirds, and 5 WWI jobs.



cocobear -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 6:08:13 PM)

Jets were aproaching 50% of the field, as SDC pointed out, that is far from representative of what the populace has. When compared to a rockwell vs a waco vs an Albatros, Dh's comments about most jets looking alot alike holds quite a bit of water (at least with me). As to Abu's comment, Photographers get enthralled with certain exceptional models (in their eyes) as they are only human. Yes, I reallllllly liked the scoring this year. It is very hard to compete with planes which have bomb drops and multiple mechanicals. Yes, I choose what I fly and think I do a nice job but it is hard to compete with auto 10's. That being said, I would gladly take a know penalty/benefit system with jets included than seperate categories. I take great joy in beating jets! Congrats to DH on an excellant job and it was a ball battling to the last .01 point!!

DJ



Stickbuilder -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 7:37:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abufletcher

It does seem to be the same narrow selection of aircraff year after year. At times it seems like 20 aircraft make up 90% of everything seen at TopGun. It seems there are like 5 jets, 5 WWII warbirds, and 5 WWI jobs.


You are not sitting on the same side of the table as am I. Every year, I get to see the best of the best.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1
Team Scale Outline Judge



abufletcher -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 8:00:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
You are not sitting on the same side of the table as am I. Every year, I get to see the best of the best.


I can only judge from afar (really far) based on the photos posted on the site. I'd say my comments hold true for the photos up there now. Each year I see the same photos of the same few aircraft. I see more diversity reflected in scale contests covered in the UK modeling mags.

And really, what's up with that red DrI? That's just awful!



SDCrashmaster -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 9:50:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cocobear

That being said, I would gladly take a know penalty/benefit system with jets included than seperate categories. I take great joy in beating jets! Congrats to DH on an excellant job and it was a ball battling to the last .01 point!!

DJ


Are you of the opinion that penalizing Jets is the only way possible to beat them?
If so, is that because of their scale sound as well as looks, or just because they are pretty much the coolest thing on the planet?[;)]



Stickbuilder -> RE: TopGun photos (5/23/2008 11:50:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SDCrashmaster


quote:

ORIGINAL: cocobear

That being said, I would gladly take a know penalty/benefit system with jets included than seperate categories. I take great joy in beating jets! Congrats to DH on an excellant job and it was a ball battling to the last .01 point!!

DJ


Are you of the opinion that penalizing Jets is the only way possible to beat them?
If so, is that because of their scale sound as well as looks, or just because they are pretty much the coolest thing on the planet?[;)]


You should look at Top Gun for what it actually is. It is a gathering of the best of all Scale Models. It is not Jet vs Prop, since they can (due to Frank's unique rules) compete with a level field. The jets, by design handle the wind at Top Gun better than some of the old rag wing taildraggers. The handicap system levels the field. You can't look at something like the Ayers Thrush, or the Porsche Mooney, or one of the great piston engined warbirds and say that they are not as worthy as a great jet. Conversely, you can't look at the A-10 of Mike Selby, or Mears' F-16 and say that they are not as impressive (or more so) as any model aircraft that has ever been seen.

I have had the honor of judging all the entries in Team Scale, and can tell you that they are all worthy competitors. We are all guilty of wanting our favorite type of model to win. Frank's method is fair, and is constantly being reviewed to ensure that one type of model does not gain an unfair advantage over another.

Abu,

I don't know which DR-1 you are referencing. One that I saw was an old model that was built by the entrants Father, and was entered in the Pro-Am class. As such, it was a welcome entrant in the event.

It's pretty easy to sit and become a Monday morning quarterback, but it's quite another thing to have 15 minutes to assess the finest models in the world. They are all winners by the sheer fact that they were there.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1



abufletcher -> RE: TopGun photos (5/24/2008 12:26:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
You should look at Top Gun for what it actually is. It is a gathering of the best of all Scale Models. It is not Jet vs Prop, since they can (due to Frank's unique rules) compete with a level field. The jets, by design handle the wind at Top Gun better than some of the old rag wing taildraggers. The handicap system levels the field. You can't look at something like the Ayers Thrush, or the Porsche Mooney, or one of the great piston engined warbirds and say that they are not as worthy as a great jet. Conversely, you can't look at the A-10 of Mike Selby, or Mears' F-16 and say that they are not as impressive (or more so) as any model aircraft that has ever been seen.


Well said.


quote:


I don't know which DR-1 you are referencing. One that I saw was an old model that was built by the entrants Father, and was entered in the Pro-Am class. As such, it was a welcome entrant in the event.


Obviously, I don't know the backstory of any of the models shown in the photo gallery. There's something definitely honorable about flying a true vintage RC model. But are you saying there are no standards at all for Pro-Am models? I see models of the standard of that DrI almost every weekend at my local field. Maybe I just need to think of Pro-Am as some entirely separate event, that happens to be run at the same time as TopGun. I guess to me, TopGun is really only about Expert Class. But then I'm also of the mind that judging ought to be about 9 points out of 10 on the modeling and a single point for a nice scale flight so you can't really take my opinions seriously. [:D]



Ron S -> RE: TopGun photos (5/24/2008 2:57:39 AM)

If you go to the FTE website and count the models that showed up, you'll see it was much closer to 1/3 of the models being turbine powered (that is, jets and turboprops combined), and not ~50%. And slightly less than 1/3 are jets in the top 3 classes. I admit, looking at the pics from Mint Julep (quickly) recently, I don't know if I saw a single one.

As Bill said, the story behind the DR.1 was pretty interesting, as it is apparently quite an old model (although as you point out, you can't read that from the pics.) Also, the 2 Pro-Am classes (correct me if I'm wrong) is an attempt to generate/keep people into scale contests, with a very limited requirement for documentation, and emphasis on flying the machines. Even in those classes, there were many very nicely built models - it had me wondering why they wouldn't enter in the other classes.

Also, there are 5 classes at the event, not just expert and the pro-ams. You should check out Frank's website if you haven't yet. [8D]



abufletcher -> RE: TopGun photos (5/24/2008 9:39:28 AM)

I don't mind seeing Jets. After all, jets are aircraft and need love too! [;)] I just get tired of seeing the SAME jets again and again (F-100, Sabre, Cougar, F-14/15/16/18). I understand that the reason for this is that most of these Jets are built from high-end (complex) composite kits and that coming up with a new composite kit is quite an undertaking. I also fully acknowledge the tremendous skills required to create a TopGun level model from one of these kits.

Still, while I was totally blown away by Joe Grice' F-100 a few years ago, I don't think I care to see many more "me too" F-100's. For years and years WWI modelers have focused on the same few machines, partially because only a few of these early aircraft are documented to a level necessary for a top end scale model. But still, it seems to me that the level and quality of WWI modeling continues to improve. It that also going to happen with jets? Somehow I can't see how one could take a jet model to a higher level than Joe's F-100 (or his stunning F-86).

I'd like to see a 1/3 scale Be2c take TopGun honors some day! [:D][:D][:D]



Stickbuilder -> RE: TopGun photos (5/24/2008 1:05:34 PM)

Abu,

There is no static judging for the planes in Pro-AM. If you provide a photograph of the plane that you are replicating, to prove that it did exist, you get your 25 points. The rest of your score is on the flying part of the program. There are models there that have competed in the Expert and or Masters class, or in Team Scale, and have exceeded the time allocation for the events (Charlie Nelson's 1992 Mr. Top Gun winner was one of these). So you get to see most everything there.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1



cocobear -> RE: TopGun photos (5/24/2008 5:05:51 PM)

SDC, The only jet which has beat me PERIOD, the last three years is dave Ribbe's. With you so quick to criticize, why not compete with a plane instead of your words? As I stated if you read the whole post. I don't care whether or not there is a penalty/bonus or whatever. I choose my plane and I win plenty of contest and no other but TG has bonus/penalty. Also, I sais approaching, check the last three or so years. This year there were less jets. Sorry about the typo of know vs. no. BTW, when Frank was sending notes for ideas for bonus/penalties, I said I certainly won't turn them down but I will gladly go head to head with anyone. Overall, Top Gun is always fun and an extordinarily well judged contest. For better or worse, you get what you deserve. Abu was refering (I believe) to the 1/3rd scale tripe in designer. I frankly thought it was kind of cool, in a service beeten to death kind of way.



Lucky Dog -> RE: TopGun photos (5/24/2008 5:07:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron S
I admit, looking at the pics from Mint Julep (quickly) recently, I don't know if I saw a single one.


Ron,
There was one this year. Michael Grant's nice F9F Panther. Not sure how he ended up though. He told me at breakfast Sunday that his Panther (with the tip tanks) didn't like the wind (and it was very gusty for the afternoon rounds). So not all jets do better in those conditions.



Thrushdust -> RE: TopGun photos (5/24/2008 7:37:36 PM)

No I don't think the "penalty" is the only way to beat a jet! Jeff Foley and others did it regularly at Top Gun before the adjustments. I also won Designer Scale and Grand Champion at the ScaleMasters 2003 Championships on a one to one scoring system... I have to give cocobear an AMEN on this one! Yes, I enjoy beating the $20k+ jets with my airplane of less than $2000 worth of materials and equipment too.
We choose our subjects just as we can chose which events to compete in or not. Frank has done a excellent job keeping all types of aircraft competitive at Top Gun against all types of criticism. Just think of the courage it takes to institute a rule like that when several of your major sponsors are the top jet manufacturers or suppliers in the industry. Top Gun announces all it's rules for a particular year before they send out invitations, if you happen to get invited, but don't want play by the current rules stay home! The number of jets was down this year, whether because of the rules or other reasons but look back 2-3 years ago when the turbines were dominating and there where more than a dozen versions of F-100's and F-86's on the flight lines, it was obvious by many that something needed to be changed and it was.
If you don't like the 1.5% "fixed" flight penalty then fine, outlaw (and enforce) the use of gyros on the rudders and nose wheels, not only will they lose more than a point on each takeoff and landing, there will be a serious safety problem when they can't keep their jets on or near the runway without the gyros aiding them. How many do you think were flying without them to enhance their flight scores? I fly a very short coupled tail dragging duster without a gyro, nor retracts, tank or bomb drops etc. and you think they are penalized?
Yes, I was very impressed by several of the new jets this year, but there were very few "duplicate types" compared to previous years! Ali's Citation was the only other plane I saw flying most of his flight down in my normal airspace. Maybe the rules work as intended?
D. Hayes



Ron S -> RE: TopGun photos (5/25/2008 1:09:14 AM)

I can't speak for many of the jet models there, but mine didn't have a gyro, and I'm pretty sure the Vulcan did not. Gyros are for wimps. [;)] As a matter of fact, a judge started checking some of the models before startup for gyro usage during round 2 of Saturday flying.



I_Fly_Coolers -> RE: TopGun photos (5/25/2008 3:45:28 AM)

Do we have to pay $20 to see the photo's ?? [8|]



Thrushdust -> RE: TopGun photos (5/25/2008 4:49:24 AM)

Sorry Ron, I may be wrong about the level of usage but they are allowed to be used on the rudder and ground steering channels only. The spot checking was reported to be for use on other control surfaces since some "competitors" have been accused of using them on at least ailerons too.



abufletcher -> RE: TopGun photos (5/25/2008 5:24:20 AM)

Hey, if the original aircraft (jets) can have computer controlled flight surfaces, why not the model? [;)]

Seriously, I'm enjoying hearing some of the inside perspective from actually TopGun competitors. I can only marvel at the skill and determination needed to compete.



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