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All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> RC Fuels >> 10% oil
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10% oil - 6/4/2003 7:25:37 AM   
Spaceclam



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Joined: 4/13/2003
From: chatsworth, CA, USA
Status: offline 		the engine manufacturers reccomend about 18-20% oil. that is more for longevity than performance. the fact is, (at least in my case) the engine does not load up, and has an incredible amount of power at top speed. i am also using that nitro blast stuff, and i was able to lean out the needle 4 clicks, resulting in once again less friction, less wear, less heat.

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Re: oil 0% - 6/4/2003 8:23:47 PM   
JWN



Posts: 4793
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Florence, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by FLYYBOY666
Not the sharpest tool in the shed I would say.the correct amount of quality oil equals less friction.less friction more rpm equals more power.less lube, more drag ,more drag, more wear.more wear,
busted engine .no engine equals no fly ,no fly equals one pissed monkey.not a single part of it is rocket science.
[/QUOTE]

Wow, that's pretty good going straight to the name calling.

A high quality oil is slicker and will provide more protection than a low quality oil. Because of this, less oil is needed to offer the same, or even better, protection and performance than the higher content yet lower quality oil. But, you did hit on one correct item. The CORRECT amount of quality oil. Again, a higher quality oil requires less of it to be present to perform as good, or better, than a lower quality oil. Say it three times slow and it might begin to make sense.

[QUOTE]
I have been mixing testing home brew since I was 12 years old without any problems.clarence lee recommends 20-23% Castor synth blend.have a great day.ill probably catch hell for this one [/QUOTE]

Good for you. I'm glad you found something you enjoy doing and have been successful with. But, that doesn't mean your opinions are the only correct ones in existence.

Yeah, Clarence Lee. The same guy who still advocates idle bar plugs and chastises people who run their engines inverted. He's old school and refuses to move forward with the modern world. The last good article I read from him was his series on mod'ing the K&B .67 marine engine to the maximum of it's performance potential with the factory parts.

Oil chemistry has changed and it's OK to accept it.

John

< Message edited by JWN-RCU -- Jun 5 2003 2:53PM >

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       Post #: 27

10% oil - 6/5/2003 6:06:06 PM   
downunder-RCU



Posts: 1125
Joined: 12/27/2001
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Status: offline 		Clarence Lee...hmmm....he's the guy who always used to say that acetone was a no no in fuel. Or at least he did until he took some bits out of my web page for his column. No acknowledgements either....

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       Post #: 28

10% oil - 6/11/2003 11:38:53 PM   
POWERMASTER


 

Posts: 46
Joined: 10/27/2002
From: Elgin, TX, USA
Status: offline 		futaba1024
Test run on different oil mixes have shown engines can be run with even less than 10% oil content, it depends on the oil. Engine manufacturers want 18 to 20% oil content and that is the reason that the fuel manufactures use these figures, their protection as well as the owners.
Wendell

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10% oil - 6/11/2003 11:45:30 PM   
JWN



Posts: 4793
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Florence, TX, USA
Status: offline 		See? I told you so

John

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10% oil - 6/12/2003 12:43:15 AM   
TimC



Posts: 2251
Joined: 1/7/2003
From: Lone Pine, CA, USA
Status: online 		When I raced dirt bikes (all two strokes), I used premium synthetic oil at a ratio of 50:1. The results were: Less fouled plugs, much less carbon build-up, more power with no difference that I could tell in ring or bearing life. The accepted theory was that the engine would run cooler with less oil due to the quinching effect of the extra gas in the mix. I couldn't tell any difference with engine temps, but never had any over-heating problems. I run 18% oil in my plane engines though, following the advice of instruction manuals and the folks here at RCU.

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       Post #: 31

10% oil - 6/12/2003 12:59:26 AM   
JWN



Posts: 4793
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Florence, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Unfortunately, most people quote what they have read only because it's what "everyone" says to do. They have little to no actual experience with anything other than what is handed to them. While well intended, the advice is not always as sound as we are lead to believe.

John

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       Post #: 32

10% oil - 6/12/2003 9:11:20 AM   
downunder-RCU



Posts: 1125
Joined: 12/27/2001
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Status: offline 		Here's a hands on experience I found purely by accident. I'd always thought that using 20% all castor in an engine was totally safe. I mainly fly CL stunt where an engine is run in a rich 4 stroke which should make it even safer (a rich mixture means an even higher rate of oil flow). I bought an ST G51 and right from the beginning the run was unstable. If it leaned out slightly in a manoeuvre it would go 2 stroke and then took a few laps to settle back into a 4 stroke. Not good. This was an indication of overheating but I could find no reason for it. Finally I tried some 25% all castor and instantly it ran perfectly.

What was different about this engine? The only thing was that it was by far the most economical engine I've ever owned. Where I expected to use about 4 ounces for 6 minutes it only needed 2 ounces. Why it's so economical still puzzles me but in effect the flow of oil was half the usual so my 20% did the same as using 10% in another engine. Going up to 25% was similar to 12.5% and the engine was quite happy with that. I can only conclude that about 12.5% all castor is the minimum that a normal ringed engine can tolerate.

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       Post #: 33

10% oil - 6/12/2003 9:24:18 AM   
TimC



Posts: 2251
Joined: 1/7/2003
From: Lone Pine, CA, USA
Status: online 		I remember going from 20:1 to 50:1 necessitated going to a smaller main jet, since the resulting mixture was now richer. I guess this meant there was even less oil available. Some folks even tried 80:1, but I think this caused premature bearing and ring/cyl wear.
I'm not sure of the different air/fuel ratios between gasoline and methanol, but by my math I was using approx. 1/16 as much oil as I use in my plane engine, with no problems.

< Message edited by TIM CONVERSE -- Jun 13 2003 2:26AM >

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       Post #: 34

10% oil - 6/12/2003 8:20:02 PM   
tps


 

Posts: 9
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: Tellus
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Homebrewer
Hey, why stop at 10%, why not 5% or 2.5% oil? Based on the logic presented, you'd have to open the needle mixture to richen fuel flow since it has less non-combustible oil in the mix etc..etc..etc.. [/QUOTE]

Hey, why stop at 20%, why not 25 or even 50% oil?

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10% oil - 6/13/2003 6:46:39 AM   
Spaceclam



Posts: 4639
Joined: 4/13/2003
From: chatsworth, CA, USA
Status: offline 		because 50% does not run very well. for some reason, on a gallon of fuel i had, the oil had risen to the top. so by the end of the gallon, it was yellow because of the oil. i tried starting it, and it idled alright, but if i advanced the throttle above about half, it would sputter a lot, but not die.

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       Post #: 36

Oil - 6/14/2003 3:42:31 PM   
Dave Bowles


 

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: KS
Status: offline 		I raced both Gas and Electric off road cars, and have been using glow engines over 20 years. In Gas cars I started using what I believed to be premium fuels that had around 10% oil, Blue Thunder, FSR , etc. The Fact is that under good tuning conditions 10% oil is fine, But after having the pressure line fall off or pipe coupler split and over lean the engine during a 15 min race and ruin the engine I started switching to my normal Aircraft Fuel at 18% oil 80/20 blend. And although my engines may not have had the snap they did with 10% , I ran with a head temp of over 300 degrees for over 30 min and never flamed out and did not ruin the engine, had the pressure line split half way threw a 1 hour main . The head temp on my last pit stop was over 300, on 10% it would have flamed out within 1 lap. my engine lasted full seasons despite my over lean runs. NO you may not need 18% oil Under Ideal conditions, but a little more helps with the not so Ideal conditions. Car fuels have less oil for one reason, Performance, Car guys want snappy response and wide power bands, theres just enough oil to make it last long enough to make it Worth while. An airplane engine on 10% oil will not last much longer than a car engine on 10% when a over lean conditions occurs. Low oil contents may be fine for the very experienced tuner but not for the inexperienced that are going to make mistakes or are still learning.

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Re: Oil - 6/16/2003 8:34:30 PM   
JWN



Posts: 4793
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Florence, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Bowles
IAn airplane engine on 10% oil will not last much longer than a car engine on 10% when a over lean conditions occurs. Low oil contents may be fine for the very experienced tuner but not for the inexperienced that are going to make mistakes or are still learning. [/QUOTE]

Exactly! Tune your engine properly, and you won't have a problem. Get sloppy, and you can expect to have problems. This is true with any fuel, even that which has 30%+ oil. You just have more room for mistakes. But, engines do not REQUIRE 18%+ oil to run or last a long time. Engines require YOU to set the needle properly.

John

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       Post #: 38

oil - 6/17/2003 10:33:33 AM   
Dave Bowles


 

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: KS
Status: offline 		[COLOR=blue]"engines do not REQUIRE 18%+ oil to run or last a long time." [/COLOR]


Possibly true in many cases, But there are still many Plain Bearing engines where Higher amounts even with good oils is required for maximum life .

[COLOR=blue]"Engines require YOU to set the needle properly. "[/COLOR]

Agreed, But as I indicated, Things happen , fuel lines split, gaskets leak, fuel foams, dirt blocks. IMO there are to many unpredictable things that can happen to make a blanket statment that 18% of any oil is not required , but should be [COLOR=orange]recommended[/COLOR] , and in some cases that is how it is worded.

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Re: oil - 6/17/2003 7:18:50 PM   
JWN



Posts: 4793
Joined: 3/26/2002
From: Florence, TX, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTEPossibly true in many cases, But there are still many Plain Bearing engines where Higher amounts even with good oils is required for maximum life .
[/QUOTE]
Let me rephrase my statement. The vast majority of modern engines do not require 18% oil. Besides, what is 18%? Of what type, quality and amount? Is this number based on weight or volume? How do you know which was used if the jug only states 18%? On top of that, how do you know it's a high quality oil and not some generic bottle labeled "oil" pulled off the shelf of the Dollar General store? The fact is, you don't.

[QUOTE
Agreed, But as I indicated, Things happen , fuel lines split, gaskets leak, fuel foams, dirt blocks. IMO there are to many unpredictable things that can happen to make a blanket statment that 18% of any oil is not required , but should be[COLOR=orange]recommended[/COLOR] , and in some cases that is how it is worded. [/QUOTE]

Higher oil content in the fuel is not going to do anything to prevent damage from the things you noted. All of these items can, and should be, prevented through careful installation and maintenance of your model car, boat, plane, helicopter, etc. In a properly maintained model, none of these "unpredictable" things will happen. Certainly not dirt. That's what a fuel filter is for. If you ingest dirt down the air intake, that's your fault for not running an air filter. Again, totally preventable and not unpredictable at all.

John

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oil - 6/18/2003 10:35:14 AM   
Dave Bowles


 

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: KS
Status: offline 		[COLOR=blue]Higher oil content in the fuel is not going to do anything to prevent damage from the things you noted[/COLOR]

It most certainly does with the brands of fuel available, I proved it many times on the race track and over time. 1/8th scale off road racing is one of the roughest forms of r/c racing around, no amount of preparation can prevent things from happening , we ran them for an hour or more straight at times rain or shine. I raced along side(or behind) the professionals of the sport who all have their problems from time to time , including ruining an engine from overlean runs, and at 9 or 10% oil in off the shelf fuels it does not have to be overlean that much to do it.Cars are refueled with an open pop up lid and a squeeze bottle ,the lid is often covered in dirt and dust, filters can only do so much. Even Blue Thunder started adding more Caster to their fuel so they could run the engine at its peak and last at least an entire race. Some manufacturers like Odonnel and Wildcat forgave a little performance and brought their oil levels up to 14% for cars. I used my normal Wildcat premium extra, 18% total 80/20 blend, Wildcat will tell you just about anything you want to know about whats in it, After switching to the higher % , I never ruined an engine from overlean runs , even grossly overlean for as much as 30 min. . It becomes a matter of film thickness and strength, if a specific oil can produce the same film strength and thickness of the popular oils used , at 10% or less than great, But obviously to me, this is not the case in the off the shelf fuels available at this time, or at least that I am aware of.

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