RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field?  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
       

All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> AMA Discussions >> RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field?
Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 4:56:36 PM   
STLPilot


 

Posts: 9188
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: online
quote:

You may not believe it but most people can evaluate a situation and make a good judgment of whether certain conditions and risks are acceptable...they certainly don't need your particular flawed insight and permission.
Well that's certainly not true for the 2500 AMA clubs that decided to live by AMA rules. Under your theory these 2500 clubs were fully capable to find their own insurance and fly under their own house rules ... however they decided not too.

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to littlecrankshaf)
       Post #: 76

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 5:13:56 PM   
aeajr



Posts: 5519
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abel_pranger

Your opinion is not supported by facts in evidence.

Fact: only about half of AMA members belong to AMA chartered clubs

Fact: about half of the insurance payout by AMA is for liability incurred by chartered clubs

Abel


What facts do you offer into evidence? How do your comments disagree with anything I stated, or are your remarks directed to someone else?



quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Using your logic...what the heck is the Park Pilot membership you are so supportive of, good for... Oh...just a loop or a roll well above tree top level but aerobatics should be discouraged at the AMA club field...right...what a weenie concept to say the least.

You may not believe it but most people can evaluate a situation and make a good judgment of whether certain conditions and risks are acceptable...they certainly don't need your particular flawed insight and permission.



Not sure I understand your question. What do loops and rolls and flying at or above tree level have to do with anything related to the Park Pilot Program or flying at an AMA field? I just don't understand your statement and what it has to do with what I wrote. Or is this directed to someone else?

How would membership in the Park Pilot Program, or a full AMA membership change anything I wrote? Only in that it may help you gain access to a designated flying location and thereby reduce the chance that an unsuspecting passer by could be involved in an accident.

I agree that people can make good judgments about conditions. I have also seen people make very very poor judgments. We have more than enough drunk driving accidents and deaths to demonstrate that. So the fact is that both happen. Having an AMA membership of any kind does not change or reduce the risks of flying in an open park area that is not designated for flying. It does increase your chances of surviving an accident, financially.

Flying at a designated flying location, whether managed by an AMA club or not, does reduce risks and potentially liabilities. Just as playing baseball on a designated baseball diamond would reduce risks and potentially liabilities as opposed to going to the kiddy swing set area and hitting balls with a bat.

You don't have to like what I say and you don't have to agree, but you at least have an interpretation of the situation for your consideration. Do as you wish, but be aware of the risks and the potential consequences.





< Message edited by aeajr -- 5/27/2008 6:01:21 PM >

_____________________________

Clear Skies and Safe Flying!
Ed Anderson
Moderator
Park Pilot Program Partner

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 77

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 5:53:15 PM   
KidEpoxy



Posts: 3387
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: online 		[quote=stl]
[quote= LCS]You may not believe it but most people can evaluate a situation and make a good judgment of whether certain conditions and risks are acceptable...they certainly don't need your particular flawed insight and permission.[/quote] Well that's certainly not true for the 2500 AMA clubs that decided to live by AMA rules. [/quote]

uh, I am confused as to what people stl says are agreeing to what.
Are the people he is talking about here choosing to obey AMA (AMA Clubbers),
the same people (AMA Clubbers) that are OK to break the AC91-57 & upcoming regs/policy/redefinition as stl proposed inthe other curent thread?

STL, are these the same people,
that adhear with a deathgrip to AMA code (insurance reqs),
but play fast & loose with fed regs/policy/AC/WaiverSystem because so many havent been fine/jailed yet?

Which ama are you talking about here?
I just want us all to be on the same page & have a thorough understanding of your post.

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 78

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 6:26:56 PM   
STLPilot


 

Posts: 9188
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: online
quote:

Which ama are you talking about here?
I just want us all to be on the same page & have a thorough understanding of your post.
Well I really don't know what you're trying to say, so I'll just elaborate on my comment.

LCS said most people can evaluate situations and risks. While I find that to be true, the problem is that most people ... don't live by this theory, they only know it exists. Most people depend on guidance and rules i.e. laws to reduce their levels of risks. Again, otherwise there wouldn't be 2500 AMA clubs. Each club is living by a set of safety codes they already know exists in common knowledge...however depend on the AMA to rubber stamp something they could easily do for themselves ... but don't.

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to KidEpoxy)
       Post #: 79

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 7:53:30 PM   
aeajr



Posts: 5519
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

Which ama are you talking about here?
I just want us all to be on the same page & have a thorough understanding of your post.
Well I really don't know what you're trying to say, so I'll just elaborate on my comment.

LCS said most people can evaluate situations and risks. While I find that to be true, the problem is that most people ... don't live by this theory, they only know it exists. Most people depend on guidance and rules i.e. laws to reduce their levels of risks. Again, otherwise there wouldn't be 2500 AMA clubs. Each club is living by a set of safety codes they already know exists in common knowledge...however depend on the AMA to rubber stamp something they could easily do for themselves ... but don't.


STLPilot,

Your statement is true. However the greater value is that the AMA's rules and guidelines represent a level of assurance to land owners who are approached about using their land for flying clubs. THAT is why there are 2500 AMA clubs. When the land owner brings up a concern, you can point to thousands of other clubs that operate under the same rules, the same insurance and show a repeated record of success.

For example, the AMA has met with and reached an agreement with the federal government that endorses use of land fill sites, and particularly Super Fund sites as model airplane flying fields. Now, anyone could go to the Feds to work out that deal, but the AMA has already done it for you. This makes it easier for you to go to the local government who owns one of those sites and suggest that it be used for model airplanes.

McDonalds serves neither the best food, or the most healthy food, but no matter where you go, you get the same big mac. And so you go to McDonalds to get a predictable outcome.

When you approach a landowner, you can point to 2500 other AMA sites where landowners have been satisfied that the organization provides a level of safety guidelines that are sufficent to keep the risk of serious events low. And they provide a level of insurance to protect the land owner. That is why so many municipal parks have flying sites that have been placed under the management of AMA clubs. They have a level of assurance that the club will be operted in a certain fashion without having to staff and supervise the site out of their own budget.

People can easily form clubs based on their own ideas, their own code of saftey. If they can secure a flying site on their own, they don't need the AMA. However if they can't, then they need the AMA to help them secure flying sites by providing this comfort level to the land owners. Once you have that, then there are additional benefits to be enjoyed, but without a safe place to fly, you are out wandering in the parks, looking for an open site, hopeful that the local ranger/police don't throw you out. And you have to be wary of people wandering into your flight area and getting hurt.

THAT is why there are 2500 AMA clubs.

< Message edited by aeajr -- 5/27/2008 7:58:38 PM >

_____________________________

Clear Skies and Safe Flying!
Ed Anderson
Moderator
Park Pilot Program Partner

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 80

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 8:46:16 PM   
abel_pranger


 

Posts: 2316
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

[quote=stl]
[quote= LCS]You may not believe it but most people can evaluate a situation and make a good judgment of whether certain conditions and risks are acceptable...they certainly don't need your particular flawed insight and permission.
Well that's certainly not true for the 2500 AMA clubs that decided to live by AMA rules.

uh, I am confused as to what people stl says are agreeing to what.
Are the people he is talking about here choosing to obey AMA (AMA Clubbers),
the same people (AMA Clubbers) that are OK to break the AC91-57 & upcoming regs/policy/redefinition as stl proposed inthe other curent thread?

STL, are these the same people,
that adhear with a deathgrip to AMA code (insurance reqs),
but play fast & loose with fed regs/policy/AC/WaiverSystem because so many havent been fine/jailed yet?

Which ama are you talking about here?
I just want us all to be on the same page & have a thorough understanding of your post.


KE-
I thought he might have talking about the AMA that goes around ripping down signs that identify all those open-to-public "designated flying locations" that aeajr was going on about. I don't recall seeing any "designated flying locations" that are not dominated by AMA chartered clubs. Are there in any your part of the country?

Abel




(in reply to KidEpoxy)
       Post #: 81

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 9:57:28 PM   
aeajr



Posts: 5519
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abel_pranger


quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy


[quote= LCS]You may not believe it but most people can evaluate a situation and make a good judgment of whether certain conditions and risks are acceptable...they certainly don't need your particular flawed insight and permission.


Well that's certainly not true for the 2500 AMA clubs that decided to live by AMA rules.



KE-
I thought he might have talking about the AMA that goes around ripping down signs that identify all those open-to-public "designated flying locations" that aeajr was going on about. I don't recall seeing any "designated flying locations" that are not dominated by AMA chartered clubs. Are there in any your part of the country?

Abel



=============================================

My comments reference the two bolded statements above. Abel, I think these are your comments. Not sure if the quotations are right, but it does not matter who said them, I am responding to the statements, not the people.

MAKING A CHOICE

People who join the AMA and choose to abide by AMA rules HAVE assessed the situation and HAVE made a decision as to how to best manage the risk and the opportunity. The see an opportunity to fly with people of like interest in a safe environment where they will receiver help. The opt for the fun and the fellowship of club flying.


AMA CLUBS EVERYWHERE

The reason that you don't recall seeing designated flying areas that are not dominated by AMA chartered clubs is because it is so hard to secure such a site without the AMA helping you. Your statement proves my point. Oh I am sure there are some, but in general, if you are looking for a designated flying site of which the local government approves, it will probably have an AMA club associated with it. If you find a flying site that is on private land, there is a very good chance that there is an AMA club associated with that site.
Thanks for the help in making the point.



< Message edited by aeajr -- 5/27/2008 10:18:05 PM >

_____________________________

Clear Skies and Safe Flying!
Ed Anderson
Moderator
Park Pilot Program Partner

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 82

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 10:00:55 PM   
RCKen



Posts: 14717
Joined: 7/10/2002
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Status: offline 		Ok guys, this discussion is starting to go off topic in a big way. Let's get back to the topic of the thread please.

Ken

_____________________________

The take off is optional, but the landing is MANDATORY!!
AMA # 712539 www.gettingairborne.com
Moderator- Beginner''s, Sport Flying, Off-Topic, & AMA Discussions
RCU Community Moderator

(in reply to aeajr)
       Post #: 83

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 10:23:42 PM   
aeajr



Posts: 5519
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RTice

Hello. I sent an email to the president of one of the clubs, but I haven't received a response back...and this weekend looks to be a beauty. While I will wait for a response from the president to avoid causing problems, I do want to get your feedback regarding flying near an AMA field. I posted my original email question below. Thank you for your assistance.

Hi Mark:
I hope you don't mind me emailing you to ask you a question or two. I got your name/email from the bc flyers website.

Adjoining Fields - I am a beginner in r/c airplanes, so forgive me if this is a ridiculous question. Would I be allowed to fly a "parkflyer" plane in any of the other fields in Bush Park? Specifically, I am talking about the Hobbico Skyfly and Parkzone Slo-v. They both operate on 27mHz. I attached a map with some of the areas circled.

Best Regards,
Rob



OK RCKen, you are right.

Back to the original question.

1) The AMA club can't provide permission to fly anywhere but at the AMA field, assuming the land lord has granted them that right.

2) Flying within 2 miles of an AMA field creates the potential for channel conflict and loss of control of planes

3) If you are flying on 2.4 GHz, you avoid this issue of channel conflict but that does not give you permission to fly, only that you can do so without creating channel conflict.

4) 27 MHz planes tend to have shorter ranges but still, flying within a mile of an AMA field could still create channel conflict. Many AMA fields welcome 27 MHz planes.




_____________________________

Clear Skies and Safe Flying!
Ed Anderson
Moderator
Park Pilot Program Partner

(in reply to RTice)
       Post #: 84

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 11:02:06 PM   
ag4ever


 

Posts: 298
Joined: 10/5/2004
From: Richmond, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I have been thinking about this issue a bit recently.

What is the point of the park pilot program? I mean it is geared towards small park fliers, which according to the discourse in this thread some feel should not be flown anywhere but sanctioned fields clearly identified as aircraft flying fields.

I thought the whole purpose of "park fliers" was to make it easier for you to grab your plane head out the house to the local school field or neighborhood park, ballfield etc.. for some flying. I know I have embraced the small parkfliers for how easy it is to get a quick flight in. (I also have the luxury of flying in buildings under construction. I am currently building a new High School with football fields, baseball fields, soccer fileds, etc. So I have plenty of "park" under my control I can legally and safely fly in. Can't wait ill the walls around the gym are put up so i get a nice large area to fly my Trex 450 in!)

So if people don't want the small planes to be flown anywhere but designated flying fields, and those flying fields require full AMA, why would you need the PPP AMA?

Also, some have stated that if you have AMA you therefore agree with their terms, and I don't think that is a valid statement.

I have AMA, but don't agree with all of their terms. I live with their terms because I must have AMA to fly at Scobee Field. If it was not for the convienence and the quality of that facility, I would be flying at non AMA fields and not get the AMA.

In the end, my personal opinion, is:

If you know you are flying near a designated field, then contact them to coordinate frequency control. If there are no other fields around, fly, but be awar you can be shot down and don't put the plane in a position to cause damage or injury if it is shot down.

There are plenty of places to fly in GB Park outside Scobee Field, but at the same time why not meet some new people and get the assistance of those at Scobee Field.

(As an aside, the sign at Scobee Field states that you must have AMA to even enter the pits, but I have not seen anybody turn people away without AMA if they expressed an interest in model aircraft. Just don't expect to be able to fly without AMA.)

(in reply to aeajr)
       Post #: 85

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/27/2008 11:43:15 PM   
aeajr



Posts: 5519
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ag4ever

I have been thinking about this issue a bit recently.

What is the point of the park pilot program? I mean it is geared towards small park fliers, which according to the discourse in this thread some feel should not be flown anywhere but sanctioned fields clearly identified as aircraft flying fields.

I thought the whole purpose of "park fliers" was to make it easier for you to grab your plane head out the house to the local school field or neighborhood park, ballfield etc.. for some flying. I know I have embraced the small parkfliers for how easy it is to get a quick flight in. (I also have the luxury of flying in buildings under construction. I am currently building a new High School with football fields, baseball fields, soccer fileds, etc. So I have plenty of "park" under my control I can legally and safely fly in. Can't wait ill the walls around the gym are put up so i get a nice large area to fly my Trex 450 in!)

So if people don't want the small planes to be flown anywhere but designated flying fields, and those flying fields require full AMA, why would you need the PPP AMA?


No, this is not the purpose of the park pilot program. There are two purposes to the program

1) A lower entry point for the first time flyer who wants to start out with this kind of plane. Many AMA fields accept Park Pilot Program Members into their clubs. Ours just accepted our first PPP member.

2) To make it easier to create fields that would be restricted to parkflyer type planes. Many fields have been forced to close and others have been denied because people don't want the noise and the risk of those big planes flying around in populated areas. However, if it can be shown that nothing would be flown at those fields except small, quiet planes, then communities would be more willing to accept flying fields in their midst. This would make it easier to establish more flying fields.

These are the purpose of the Park Pilot Program, as stated on the AMA web site.
http://www.modelaircraft.org/parkflyer.aspx

_____________________________

Clear Skies and Safe Flying!
Ed Anderson
Moderator
Park Pilot Program Partner

(in reply to ag4ever)
       Post #: 86

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/28/2008 1:11:21 AM   
804


 

Posts: 223
Joined: 9/17/2005
From: sheridan, IN, USA
Status: online


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Using your logic...what the heck is the Park Pilot membership you are so supportive of, good for... Oh...just a loop or a roll well above tree top level but aerobatics should be discouraged at the AMA club field...right...what a weenie concept to say the least.

You may not believe it but most people can evaluate a situation and make a good judgment of whether certain conditions and risks are acceptable...they certainly don't need your particular flawed insight and permission.


quote:


Not sure I understand your question. What do loops and rolls and flying at or above tree level have to do with anything related to the Park Pilot Program or flying at an AMA field? I just don't understand your statement and what it has to do with what I wrote. Or is this directed to someone else?]









He's trying to be clever, quoting you from a sidebar to your article on parkflying, in the June MA. But since that sidebar was specifically about your club, and not clubs in general, his point is, well, pointless.

But as much as I hate to, I have to agree with his general feelings toward parkflying, especially regarding the OP's "predicament".
While I sure wouldn't tell RTice to just go ahead and fly in the park in question, I surely would recommend he just find a nice open spot, churchyard, schoolyard, other park,etc., use some common sense about staying away from Mrs. Moneybags, little princes and princesses, and whatever else has been brought up here, and just have at it!

He wants to fly a Slo-v for crissakes, how much trouble can he get into? People been flying those for years anywhere there's an open acre or two. No AMA. No club. Nobody lookin' over your shoulder telling you your motor isn't tuned right. Just fly your dang parkflier and have fun.

And the possibility of shooting someone down on 27 mhz. is pretty remote, IMO.

(in reply to aeajr)
       Post #: 87

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/28/2008 1:17:54 AM   
aeajr



Posts: 5519
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Status: offline 		804,

Thanks for clearing up the "loop and roll" comment. That one really had me perplexed.

_____________________________

Clear Skies and Safe Flying!
Ed Anderson
Moderator
Park Pilot Program Partner

(in reply to 804)
       Post #: 88

RE: QUESTION - Flying near an AMA field? - 5/28/2008 1:55:34 AM   
littlecrankshaf



Posts: 2134
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aeajr

804,

Thanks for clearing up the "loop and roll" comment. That one really had me perplexed.

Yea...and many others as well… but you???? LOL

Look nothing personal but just why is it you do not understand the true intent of the PPP? PPP exists with the desire and intent to grow the AMA membership...it very well may and incidentally enable other things such as flying site development at places that would otherwise be off limits or may allow entry level enthusiasts some benefits...that is true but the reason for the program is to grow AMA. BTW many previous full AMA members will also make the switch…so it is not for just beginners…

The problem is somewhat like the Better Business Bureau scam...they solicit you to pay up and join but when you ask them why, they respond with; if someone calls to check on your business we will respond "They are not members in good standing with BBB " or some such BS. Hmmm… This program has similarities IMO. In the future park flyers may be turned away because "they are not members”. That is the danger of this program.


_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

(in reply to aeajr)