RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue

RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue
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All Forums >> Radios, Batteries, Clubhouse and more >> RC Radios, Transmitters, Receivers, Servos, gyros >> RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/21/2008 11:01:58 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdave01

Makes me wonder if Futaba own this entire forum....... anything negative about Futaba gets deleted.

Just like the carping in the Futaba Support Forum over the original FASST Advisory, some of you are getting sore because Krysta, Bax and Futaba aren’t jumping through hoops because you barked.

How many ways do they have to explain to impatient clods that Futaba is aware and looking into it?

I agree with some posts here and on the support forum…if it is 140 degrees inside the fuse, you have other problems that need addressing. But…naw…..let’s blame Futaba because, with my ability to have all these expensive toys, I’m doing everything right and I demand an answer right now!

I don’t care how hot it gets in Arizona, Death Valley or Timbuktu….it gets easily to 105-110 degrees here in central California. I guess we have sense enough to get ourselves and our models out of the sun when it’s hot!

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/21/2008 11:04:02 PM

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From: SOCAL, CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pattratt

Update on my original post to Futaba Factory direct forum.

Looks like Futaba USA is unwilling to "BUG" Japan on this or they are unwilling to tell me the "WHAT or WHEN we might expect something regarding the heat issue. It doesn't take a month to at least determine if ther IS or IS NOT a problem and if there is at what temperature does it occur. I recoginize the solution could take some time but the recognition of a problem [if it exist] should take less than a day.

Futaba USA does not want to discuss the issue other than to tell me to be patient and "LOCK" the thread!!

I own my own business as a distributor of Manufactured Goods. If I treated my customers this way, I soon would not have any problems or CUSTOMERS!!!

There is no "Futaba USA" in the way you are thinking. What you think is "Futaba USA" is really Great Planes/Hobbico which is the North American distribution and service company for Futaba Products. They do not design or manufacture Futaba. They have made their concerns known to Futaba and are just as frustrated as many of you are, but in the end they cannot do much more to expedite this process.

I'm curious how much influence you have over the companies for which you act as a distribution point.

And while it may annoy a lot of people, they truly cannot tell you when Futaba will have a solution because the people in Japan have not told them. But when they (Bill & Krysta) tell people this they get accused of lying, denying, stonewalling, etc.

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/22/2008 3:23:00 AM

sirrom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dick Hanson

High temps and electronics are nothing new go under the hood of a modern auto - on a summer day
you will find 160 I was repairing a Ford Explorer-with a damaged front left fender - what do you thinkl I found under the fender skirting -outside the engine compartment?
yep - a module - for the brakes.
I can't beleive Futaba did a setup which won't withstand the heat in fuselages .
Did they?
this kind of thing should never make it past basic design.if indeed it did

I understand that the temps under the hood of a car are extreme but you know what when engineers are designing the electronics that go under the hood of a car they take that into consideration. How do I know this because I have a buddy that builds hardened cases for electronics. His job used to be determining if the electronics under the hood of a car could take the heat. If not they would either move it or put a hardened case on it to take the heat. He now designs the same things for the space program. Futaba probably never thought there would be a bunch of guys that would let their receivers get up to 160 degrees. Once again, I say this. If I can't stand the heat my airplanes don't need to be in it.

Patrick

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/22/2008 3:47:37 AM

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If a products fails in the inviroment for which its intended to use in then its a flawed design...... I dont mean the ocassional lemon.

Many times a electronic componemt is available in several operating temperature ranges, Many times a heat related problem will be from lack of propery heatsinking certain parts, Ive seen where there simply was no heatsink compound, In that case that alone fixed it.

The question i wonder is how many cases of failure do we know of so far???

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/22/2008 4:31:42 AM

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From: SOCAL, CA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdave01

If a products fails in the inviroment for which its intended to use in then its a flawed design......

The question i wonder is how many cases of failure do we know of so far???

First we have to assume that the RX was designed to operate in an environment where it could exceed 160 degrees Fahrenheit, which I am not certain is the case. Simply using it in a certain manner does not mean that this was the intended use. Even using it as you used a previous design may not mean that it is being used as intended since the operating parameters may have changed. If they have I think it should have been stated clearly as such.

What we really need here is for Futaba in Japan to issue a statement of findings. Until then all we have is speculation.

And I too would like to know how many real life failures there are. I am not talking about failures under a heat gun or in an oven, but actual failures in a plane at the field. That seems to have gotten lost.

And to the same point I would like to know how many are NOT having issues despite operating in high heat areas. One thing that needs to be looked at is if there is anything that the failed installations have in common. And the same goes for installations where they are working fine.

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/22/2008 6:43:29 AM

ira d

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I think if people have been using their receivers a certain way for years with no heat
related issues but then get a new receiver and all of sudden they start to have issues
then that says a lot. And what it means is either there is a bad bunch of receivers out
there or the receivers were not tested properly or the fact that the new receivers tend to
be more heat sensitive was not properly disclosed.

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/22/2008 6:59:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: superdave01

If a products fails in the inviroment for which its intended to use in then its a flawed design...... I dont mean the ocassional lemon.

An armchair engineer speaketh.

Many times a electronic componemt is available in several operating temperature ranges, Many times a heat related problem will be from lack of propery heatsinking certain parts, Ive seen where there simply was no heatsink compound, In that case that alone fixed it.

Many times a heat related problem will be from someone installing an itty bitty black box in direct sunlight or perhaps attaching it to the muffler for additional nose weight. Tsk, tsk.

The question i wonder is how many cases of failure do we know of so far???

Ah, the first of numerous hypothetical questions like in the FASST Advisory that caused rational thinking to evaporate.

A little research on a web burn research site yielded the following:

Temperature of Water-Time to Cause a Bad Burn
-
150°F (66°C) 2 seconds
140°F (60°C) 6 seconds
125°F (52°C) 2 minutes
120°F (49°C) 10 minutes
-

I'm surprised the said fuselage interiors didn't burst into flames or the canopys didn't wilt.

Give it a rest guys. It is beginning to sound like a chorus of poor, pitiful me here.

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/22/2008 2:00:31 PM

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The water burn numbers are relative to time which is what produces a burn.
For example the machinery I worked with (for clothing manufacturing -shaping and forming etc., was at 375f much of the time .
I had to design controls which prevented operators from accidentally contacting the "hot' areas.
anyway a brief touch on very thin metal did not cause a burn, as the skin cooled the metal.
The same time against thick metal did cause a burn- -it all has to do with heat mass.
On the electronics we see gradual thermal rise and gradual cooling -so the critical temp is easier to control as the enviroment of the electronics acts as a "heat control/ heatsink'.
Example: if the fuselage stays cool, the radio stays cool.
The fibre glass fuselages will heat the fastest
dark colors increase heat
tinted canopies reduce heat internally -a little
A white film covered balsa fuselage is the best, for heat control
Hows that for info you really did not need to read?

< Message edited by dick Hanson -- 5/22/2008 2:03:46 PM >

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/22/2008 4:29:32 PM

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From: Goodyear, AZ, USA
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Sometimes our models can be in a harsh environment. I'm only speaking to the 160deg F. I don't want get into the Brand war issue. Everybody's product can suffer under extreme conditions. When you live in hot environments you still want to fly model airplanes and we do. You don't have to put things into an oven to reach these kinds of temps. Its unfortunate that any product would suffer in this environment. We all want to play with our toy airplanes. I will say the environment can be very harsh. As a design engineer that deals with heating and Cooling issues as a part of me career field...I can tell you extreme heat loads are not limited to the middle of death valley.

A few years ago I was flying Electric pattern and we really starting to watch heat. Lipo batts and electric motors suffer under these conditions. This prompted me to take a very accurate IR temp gun and start checking temps.

I fly in Phoenix and yes even in the summer. Using a Raytek Temp gun we would check the ambient temp of objects around us then check the temps of the motors and batteries after the flight.

I started to check the temps of many aspects of our flying field before the flight just for curious sake.

Take an example a 105deg F day. In the hottest part of the day

On the shaded pit tables it was close to 105deg F
The gravel ground in the sun 125-130deg F
The blacktop pavement runway and starting area 157deg F
The white stripe on the runway 140deg F

The white Ultracoated wing panel moved from the shade to the starting area on top of the 157deg F blacktop. Was at 135degF.

Dark painted Carbon Fiber and Glass canopy on the model again just after coming from the shade and sitting it on the starting pad, 150deg F

I didn't leave the model in the sun just carried it out there and checked the temps. It was only on the pad for maybe a minute.

So we flew the model and landed. Canopy that is painted a dark color was HOT at 165-170degF the wings were still about 135degF

The model showed zero signs of bursting into flames, nothing melted, and it was taken back to the shaded table area. The electric motor and batts cooled down to the 105-110deg ambient temp and it was flown again.

So temps can soar very high in the hot sun. Not just counting ambient temps. Then running with a glow or gasoline engine will produce even higher heat sources internally to the models. Even the heat can "soak" through the firewalls and to internal components like RX's and batteries. Its unfortunate any of us have problems with our equipment, but the environment can be brutal at times.

I have only lived in Phoenix now for about 4-5 years. Yes we fly all year long and even in the summer during these hot temps. Covering the models or some shade always helps, but the temps internally in the models can easily reach the temps that are being discussed.

Just two days ago it was 111deg F and the hottest day of the year so far. I was not out flying but my back porch which sees late day direct sun showed 128deg F on the stucco wall. It it painted the same color as every other house in Phoenix, light tan.

By the way we have even seen temps in the model where the Li-ion batteries we were using went dead. As they went to an open circuit and 0.00Volts. Go to turn the model on and it doesn't respond. Check voltage and nothing....

I guess what I'm saying is don't underestimate the power of of the sun. And don't think because the weatherman says its 100degs today that objects in the shade or in the sun will be that temperature. The thermal properties of objects and the sun can really affect the temps of our components. A black servo or RX case sitting in a canopy area inside a fuse. No breeze to pass through to help cool the components by convection. Temps can soar very high and its still not bursting into flames.

Troy Newman

< Message edited by Troy Newman -- 5/22/2008 7:46:06 PM >

(in reply to dick Hanson)

RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/22/2008 5:53:37 PM

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reasonable
I did not want to assign numbers but those are right in line with what I have seen (I also have a Infared gun)
I have see standard plastic canopies distort - badly - this takes usually 200 f. but lower temps and pressure buildup will do the same -I once saw one blow up like a balloon and pop and fall over - true story it was a old one -not made from PETG as almost all are now.
I am going to "shoot" some of my 6100/7000rx to see what is typical temp here - they are dark grey . my JR are light red - odd as it amy seem -the case color does make a difference.
My A123 powered models have minimal batt heat (as compared against LiPos ) even run at 50 amps .
Years back working with clothing manufacturers- we were informed that changing color of thread changed the setup on the sewing machines - really-
FWIW- Ya gotta know the territory-

< Message edited by dick Hanson -- 5/22/2008 5:59:24 PM >

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/31/2008 2:07:18 PM

Julez

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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=872530

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/31/2008 8:00:26 PM

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I have re-read my 9C, 9Z and 12Z manuals and related material that came with each system.

The 9Z manual makes no mention of heat when installing an Rx.

The 9C manual says to avoid extreme temperatures.

The 12Z manuals says nothing - the 12Z 2.4Ghz supplement provides the same basic language as the 9C - and says to avoid extreme temperatures - to mount the Rx as you did previous Rxs with the exception of the two antennas at 90 degrees.

There is no defininitive spec of what an extreme temperature is contained in any of the manuals or literature. The 60 degree C temp has been mentioned as extreme, but I have not found it in any Futaba literature.

The problem I have with using my 12Z on 2.4Ghz is one of am I willing to gamble everthing I own - that I could lose in a lawsuit if the worst happened. I can imagine being on the witness stand with a lawyer asking me why I was using a Futaba 12 Z with the 2.4 Ghz module and Rx.

Well you honor, I had read that there may be a problem with losing control of my 26 pound aircraft, but I didn't believe what I read - I thought it was all baloney - why Futaba is a great company - even though they wouldn't answer some direct questions about their product - wether or not there was a problem - even after a month of investigating. Yes I know that such a problem can be looked at in several days by a competenet engineering staff like I work with every day, but golly gee, these guys are in Japan - no your honor, I didn't think what I read was true and Futaba was good stuff. Sorry about hitting that kid riding a bike, but I don't think I am liable here.....

I just don't like to gamble - perhaps some do. Your choice.

Dan

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/31/2008 9:19:34 PM

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Dan, everyone gambles when they put their planes in the air. Everyone, every time.

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/31/2008 9:40:04 PM

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Ryan,

Yes you gamble when you fly - but due dilligence basically says you did everything reasonable to put your plane in the air in a safe manner - spectators can reasonably expect to not get hit by a run-a-way aircraft.

Example 1: I fly my Nieuport 28 with a Futaba 9C and PCM reciever - same as I flew last year. I check everything out. It all appears to all be good based on my years in the hobby. Something happens - I can state that I reasonably did everything I could to avoid such an incident.

Example 2: Someone new approaches me and askes me to check out their Nieuport 28 and give it a test fly. It is built just like mine. It has a Futaba 8UA Tx with PCM reciever. I personally know Futaba had a design defect on early 8UAs that would cause them to quit transmitting. There is documented evidence I know. I fly it anyway without checking that the Tx had the proper fix - something happens - I am in deep do do.

Right now there is a question about the 6014 failing if it is used in the same manner as we are all accustomed to. The documentation basically states this it should be mounted and used the same. I use it anyway - there is documentation on RCU that I knew about the potential risk and ignored it. In any lawsuit, I am dead meat.

Like I said, you can gamble - I don't like to given what can happen. I have had my share of mishaps over the years - hit a house once - but in good faith I did all that was possible to retain control over my aircraft. I lost control over a 26 pound Carden Extra 300 due to the 8UA - I still remember standing there praying it wouldn't hit anyone and cause injury - I just didn't want to see anyone get hurt - I didn't have time to consider a lawsuit.

I had my doubts about Futaba's system before the Toledo show - but one of their executives assured me it was one of the best systems on the market. Now there is a question and Futaba refuses to answer. It doesn't take a month to do an evaluation by a group of competent engineers - and I believe that Futaba has competent engineers - something else is going on - and I don't care to speculate here. What I do know is that Futaba is an industrial giant in electronics - not just RC. Yes, they have had the technology for years - but I believe they were pushed to market by Spektrum - in fact, I believe that if Specktrum had not brought their product to market, there would be no Futaba FAAST system right now - there would be no economic reason to do so.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Dan

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue - 5/31/2008 9:45:19 PM

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Certainly by now you know there are many park flyers available at toy stores that transmit on 72mhz. Do you still fly your aircraft on 72mhz knowing that some kid could unknowningly turn on a couple blocks down the street and send your 26 pound airplane into the crowd?

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RE: Futaba 6014 receiver heat issue -