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Mysterious Shutdown - 5/31/2008 5:48:22 PM   
causeitflies



Posts: 227
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Steubenville, OH, USA
Status: online 		While taxiing my Falcon powered Flash for takeoff I had a weird shutdown.
I taxied about 300 ft toward the end of the runway and as soon as I reached the end and turned 90 deg in the 180 turn around, the engine quit. Immediately afterward my cell phone in my pocket rang. The first thing I thought was that the phone had caused some type of problem with my Tx (Multiplex). Once, while setting up a plane on the bench, I had everything go dead and then the phone rang and everything was back to normal. So naturally I thought the same thing happened here. There have been several threads on this phenomenon.

Next I put the phone in the pits, fired up the plane and taxied toward the end of the runway again. In the same exact spot while turning around, the engine flamed out.
I did a range check and everything was normal with more than 200 ft with antenna completely collapsed.

There are two possible causes left that I can think of.
At the time there was a 15mph direct crosswind and when I made the turn the tailpipe was directly into the wind and I was at idle. Could this wind up the tailpipe have caused the engine to shut down? Has this ever happened to anyone else?
I tried to repeat it again and everything was normal with no shutdown. The only difference was that the wind was down to about 10 mph.

The only other cause I could come up with was that if my trim is only one or two clicks above the "ready" position, I can pull back pressure on the throttle stick and it will go to the "low trim" position until I release the pressure. I may have pulled slightly on the throttle stick while making the turn. But I make it a habbit of adding a few extra clicks to the trim and checking to make sure this doesn't happen.

Cause of shutdown on the data terminal was low RPM and no Rx errors.

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Mark P
An Expert has made every mistake - A Master has made every mistake twice
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RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 5/31/2008 7:53:54 PM   
B58


 

Posts: 550
Joined: 3/19/2002
From: La Luz, NM, USA
Status: offline 		I had a FTE-500 do this three times in a row. I cranked it back up and tried to fly each time. finally checked the receiver pack voltage, and it was dropping way down when the nose steering servo moved! The engine was smarter than I was. Changed the servo, and no more problems. Bob

(in reply to causeitflies)
       Post #: 2

RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 5/31/2008 9:31:53 PM   
BluFox



Posts: 332
Joined: 1/1/2002
From: North Port, FL,
Status: offline 		Hi Mark:

Need some additional information. What Rx and ECU batteries are you using? Multiplex EVO? If so, we use the same system. It is very important to make sure all throttle end points, expo etc. are set to default (100%) PRIOR to training the Tx. Also, remove all throttle curves programmed into the Tx. Please retrain Tx and ECU if in doubt. When retraining the TX and ECU. . .please do not try to outsmart it. Do exactly what it asks.

Remember, if you have an operation condition out of the ordinary like your unexplained shut down, you should plug your HDT into the ECU (prior to turning the system off) and press "menu down" This will give you the failure code or reason. Remember, for most codes, they can be found in the back of the manual.

Unexplained shut down. . .was it with some smoke out the TP or without? Possible air bubble?

Anyway, feel free to discuss here on this thread or give me a call. Yes, Sunday's are OK as well .

Cheers,
Eric Clapp
Jet Central Micro Turbines

< Message edited by BluFox -- 5/31/2008 9:33:03 PM >


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www.jetartes.com

(in reply to causeitflies)
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RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 5/31/2008 11:07:59 PM   
causeitflies



Posts: 227
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Steubenville, OH, USA
Status: online 		Hey Eric,
Yes it's the Evo. I already have three flights on the plane and everything checks out on the engine fine as far as the programming goes.
I'm leaning toward the possibility that I pulled back on the stick a little when turning and coming off the throttle and I confirmed that I can shut the engine down by doing this if I only have the trim set one or two clicks above "ready". It's just that I thought for sure that I put it up a few more clicks as I normally do after the ready light comes on. That's why I was thinking that maybe a strong wind up the pipe may have shut it down though I thought it highly unlikely. I know it could cause a bad start but once up and running shouldn't matter much.

I'll adjust my Tx stick tension to do away with that possibility (I've been meaning to do it for a year )

B58,
I've got two 5 cell 1700 packs that showed good and I taxied repeatedly back and forth in the same spot making many turns trying to repeat the shutdown. The only difference was the wind and making sure I had those extra few clicks in the trim.

It turns out after all the taxiing my brakes were gone and I was out of air, even though I didn't use the brakes much. So it was probably good I didn't fly anyway. Now I have to see if I have an air leak.

_____________________________

Mark P
An Expert has made every mistake - A Master has made every mistake twice

(in reply to BluFox)
       Post #: 4

RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 6/1/2008 2:45:06 AM   
Sparhawk



Posts: 392
Joined: 8/19/2002
From: Dartmouth, NS, CANADA
Status: offline 		I noticed on my 14mz that when the throttle is all the way down, the monitor shows it to be -98%, and if I apply some pressure then it goes to -100. When I teach the ECU, I have to apply and hold back pressure on the stick so that it gets the full low range.

I will be conducting bench runs on my new Falcon tomorrow.

Eric - did you receive my PM?

Dan

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Oh great are the days my landings = my take-offs....!
Revver Bro #158

(in reply to causeitflies)
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RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 6/1/2008 3:31:15 AM   
causeitflies



Posts: 227
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Steubenville, OH, USA
Status: online 		I forgot to mention that there was no smoke. It was just like a normal shut down. 2400 NiCd stock ECU battery.

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Mark P
An Expert has made every mistake - A Master has made every mistake twice

(in reply to Sparhawk)
       Post #: 6

RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 6/1/2008 3:10:22 PM   
pilott28


 

Posts: 844
Joined: 12/24/2002
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: causeitflies

I forgot to mention that there was no smoke. It was just like a normal shut down. 2400 NiCd stock ECU battery.


Mark, did you happen to notice what the last RPM reading was on the engine? Did it seem to gradually lose RPM before the shutdown, or did it just suddenly quit, like it does when you shut it down manually?



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Keith Sievers

(in reply to causeitflies)
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RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 6/1/2008 5:21:42 PM   
causeitflies



Posts: 227
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Steubenville, OH, USA
Status: online 		Seemed like a normal shutdown. Of course it was about 300 ft away so I don't know exactly what the RPM was.
Last night I adjusted my Tx stick so that no matter how hard I pull the throttle won't go any lower than the stick position. Hopefully that was it.
I want to try again today but the winds are forecast for 10 to 20 all day. Maybe this evening.

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Mark P
An Expert has made every mistake - A Master has made every mistake twice

(in reply to pilott28)
       Post #: 8

RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 6/1/2008 8:47:59 PM   
BluFox



Posts: 332
Joined: 1/1/2002
From: North Port, FL,
Status: offline 		Mark:

Read each post you made. My concern is the two or three clicks you remarked about. If you are refering to the throttle trim, please make sure to re-train the Tx and ECU. In doing so, follow the HDT requests. When it asks for High stick and high trim, please do so and so on. If you are referring to the throttle stick, disregard my statement about the throttle trim, however, just to be sure, re-train the Tx and ECU.

I spoke to Felipe when I was in MEX and with his EVO, you can put pressure on the throttle stick and effect the ECU. Just the pressure sends yet another signal to the ECU. I believe you are on the right track.

Thanks,
Eric Clapp
Jet Central Micro Turbines


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JetArtes Gulf Coast
www.jetartes.com

(in reply to causeitflies)
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RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 6/1/2008 10:35:57 PM   
causeitflies



Posts: 227
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Steubenville, OH, USA
Status: online 		Yes Eric,
I'm referring to the stick. The monitor now confirms that no matter how hard I pull on the stick the signal doesn't change. I had to play with the Evo stick tension screws some to get to that point. I believe most radios do this to some extent.
As I said before, I would always add a few clicks to compensate for it but now I don't have to worry about it. I'll still keep the idle trim a few clicks above the "ready" position as I normally do.

I'm still curious if anyone has had a flameout from a strong tailwind up the kazoo while on the ground at idle.

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Mark P
An Expert has made every mistake - A Master has made every mistake twice

(in reply to BluFox)
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RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 6/2/2008 12:12:05 AM   
pilott28


 

Posts: 844
Joined: 12/24/2002
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: causeitflies

Yes Eric,
I'm referring to the stick. The monitor now confirms that no matter how hard I pull on the stick the signal doesn't change. I had to play with the Evo stick tension screws some to get to that point. I believe most radios do this to some extent.
As I said before, I would always add a few clicks to compensate for it but now I don't have to worry about it. I'll still keep the idle trim a few clicks above the "ready" position as I normally do.

I'm still curious if anyone has had a flameout from a strong tailwind up the kazoo while on the ground at idle.


I have never had a flameout from a tailwind, much less two.

If your throttle work still doesn't fix the issue, I would suggest two other avenues of research.

The first would be be a faulty RPM sensor or connection. This could be in the engine or in your connections. You can run the engine watching the RPM to look for anaomolies.

The other situation I have seen that causes this is a partial fault in the fuel system ... a kinked line, a faulty pump, a faulty fuel valve, clooged filter, etc..... This will allow partial fuel to reach the engine, but not enough to sustain idle RPM. This usually results in a somewhat gradual drop in RPM until it reaches the cutoff point.

I am more suspicious of the former, rather than the latter, assuming the throttle training doesn't fix the problem.

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Keith Sievers

(in reply to causeitflies)
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RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 6/2/2008 3:51:44 PM   
jetmon


 

Posts: 12
Joined: 11/27/2003
From: M鸩co CityD.F., MEXICO
Status: offline 		Hello Mark
There is a very important information you can get from the ICS (ECU) right after a flame out by turning off and on your RX and the TX in trim low, with “Menu Down” (firs t button of the hand data terminal) you will get for a couple of seconds the reason of the last shout down, in this case you might have got “User off” if it was a trim or stick adjust problem, or “fail safe” if it was a radio problem
Unfortunately you have run the turbine after the flame out and it is more difficult to get the info out of the ICS but if you are interested it still can be done with a USB cable and software from this page http://www.espiell.com/soft.htm

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Juan
Jet Central service

(in reply to pilott28)
       Post #: 12

RE: Mysterious Shutdown - 6/2/2008 4:57:51 PM   
causeitflies



Posts: 227
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Steubenville, OH, USA
Status: online 		Thanks for the info.
I'm going flying now.
I even know now why I had no air left in the system. When I was doing the range check, I had the radio in test run mode on the elevator so I used all the air using the brakes with down elevator

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Mark P
An Expert has made every mistake - A Master has made every mistake twice

(in reply to jetmon)
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