RE: diesel finally on the way??

RE: diesel finally on the way??
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RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 2:55:23 AM

Jim8ightT

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From: cohoes, NY, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

Jim,

Don't worry about a loss of top end. A diesel spinning a small prop (low load) will sometimes out rev a glow. Or if that doesn't work well in a car/truck, you could always experiment with gearing. I'm sure that Davis has this all sorted out. He knows his stuff.

thank you

the vid was nice to so you can run on bio wich is nice

I think that this will be the future with the way the oil market is going plus nitro is "imo" overrated for glow engines. from what i have learned I would like to see more use of it in future models

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Post #: 26

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 3:09:26 AM

AndyW

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Joined: 1/17/2003
From: Timmins, ON, CANADA
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Hi Jim,

BioDiesel isn't practical yet, but you never know.

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Andy Woitowicz

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Post #: 27

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 3:25:23 AM

gkamysz

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From: Crystal Lake, IL, USA
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I haven't posted here in a long time. There are good reasons but I have to clear some things up before things get silly around here.

Nobody cares about the cost of their model fuel. If they did, everyone would buy a four stroke. Fuel efficiency is superb, but alas initial cost of the engine is high and since nobody tracks fuel usage, they don't know they save money that way.

Diesels are not going to be the next fad. Not until someone figures out how to make them as easy to use as glow, with a fuel that doesn't go bad.

We did a lot of experimenting with alternate fuels. Nothing is remotely acceptable other than formulas with reduced ether content. No model diesels run on biodiesel, yet.

If you think there will be a LiPo "shortage" then, you should probably go back to NiCd, since nobody uses them they must be almost free.

I agree we need new blood in diesel suppliers, but even 50% of the tiny market share is still nothing.

Good luck. And don't expect diesel to be front page news on MAN next month.

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Greg

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Post #: 28

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 5:42:06 AM

Ed Cregger

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From: Ringgold, GA, USA
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I suspect that we modelers sometimes lose sight of the fact that our Diesels aren't true Diesels, any more than our glow engines are true spark/gasoline/petrol engines. They are animals of a breed apart. While our model Diesels appear to share similar characteristics to true Diesels, they are not.

Ed Cregger

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Artisan

"Flying models since the Fifties - I'll get the hang of this yet!!!"

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Post #: 29

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 8:19:30 AM

freeair

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Joined: 5/10/2008
From: queensland, AUSTRALIA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SGC

freeair,
The John Deer starting fluid is available here in Toowoomba- I just bought another 10 cans last week, if you really want to fly your diesels then check your local JD agent for starting fluid.
Stewart

Stewart, thanks for this info. could you please tell me what this starting fluid is made up of ? like is it straight ether ? thanks.

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Post #: 30

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 4:18:08 PM

AndyW

Posts: 1897
Joined: 1/17/2003
From: Timmins, ON, CANADA
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Hi Greg,

For me, it's the journey not the destination. Imagine a teleportation machine. No fun in that. No scenery to watch go by, no interaction with fellow passengers, no applause when the wheels touch down, no clickety clack to put you to sleep on a cross-country rail trip. No adventure, no fun.

All of us here have a fascination for the machine. Inert bits of metal of various sorts. Shape those bits in the right way, assemble them, feed them, give them the breath of life and watch them perform. My neighbours tell me I act like the mad scientist on RobotChicken. It's aliiiive! It's aliiive!

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Andy Woitowicz

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Post #: 31

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 4:23:55 PM

AndyW

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What makes John Deere starting fluid desireable as an ether source is that they print right on the can, that it's guaranteed, 80% ether. The balance is unknown to me but I treat that as a kerosene component. But even then, when I mix, I just treat it as straight ether. Say 40% ether and really, it's 32% but that's close enough. A true percentage would be 50% of the spray yielding an accurate 40% in the mix. Or thereabouts.

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Post #: 32

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 4:40:37 PM

AMB

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From: winter park, FL, USA
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What ever the 20% is,its a gas maybe the propellant (Heptane??) when you spray it on a piece of white paper there is no oil spot or any type of residue after it evaporates
some of the other ether starting spray use some sort of liquid hydrocarbon hyped as upper cylinder lube just a way to make it cheaper for them to cut down the ether martin

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Post #: 33

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 7:39:22 PM

Lou Crane

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From: Sierra Vista, AZ, USA
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A while back, someone posted the MSDS for John Deere Starting fluid.

Was that you, Martin?

Thanks to whomever, anyway...

There was mention of 1 oz (mass not volume) of Butane dissolved in the di-Ethyl ether. I've had a bit of trouble for the first day or so after mixing fuel using the JohnD - apparently until the dissolved Butane gasses out... After that, works just fine.

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Post #: 34

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 8:20:13 PM

gkamysz

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From: Crystal Lake, IL, USA
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Lou, I posted the MSDS. If you care to look at it 80% ether is really more like 90-99% once you let the propellant out. These sorts of details is what makes the adventure an adventure rather than a productive experiment. Not checking out and following through on details will lead nowhere and take forever to get there.

Every time the idea of new fuels comes up for diesels I have to make the point that nothing we do as modelers is ground breaking. All of the experiments and data exists. Somebody has been there and done that, and has the tee shirt and patent to prove it. Somebody who cares about model engines needs to apply it.

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Post #: 35

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 8:35:32 PM

AndyW

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From: Timmins, ON, CANADA
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Thanks Greg,

That explains why we're all having so much luck using JD ether. And that might explain why many of us are able to run and fly diesel engines when otherwise it would be very difficult to do so due to the unavailability of fuel from a local source.

No harm in going over old ground, not all of us have been there, done that. Some of us just dive in and have fun.

Better atomization seems to be a big factor in diesel operation. Methanol and nitro evaporate and atomize easily. Not so kerosene and especially not so BioDiesel. I have an idea that might improve atomization for both. That might even help to reduce the percentage of ether required.

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Andy Woitowicz

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Post #: 36

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 9:29:53 PM

AMB

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From: winter park, FL, USA
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Greg did not look up the MSDS specs but I do remember the posts, side port entry of the charge can not achieve the fine atomization of a full size injected diesel
even the old injection system at 1550 to 2000 psi did a pretty good job, but you still had the loud diesel rattle. with the new electronic injection system pushing better than 15000 PSI
you get a very fine mist and I guess a very smooth flame front just listen to an old cummins vs a new one my 2006 cummins is super quiet in comparison I guess our mixture is "gravel size" compared to that. I did try a mix just by subing the kero with #2 low sulfur the smell was greatly reduced but did have some soot and carbon engine did run ok
Mr Davis has suggested adding some lamp oil or candle fragrance for those who find the odor not to their liking to our traditional mixs commerica,l or home brew
For the new folks if you are getting lots of smoke and black oil out the exhaust you are too rich over compressed or both/ most of mine have a light grey exhaust and a very lght coloe oil out the stack no more than a 4 strk glow

If you look at his truck conversions on u tube 3.3 traxxax and 4.6 HPI very clean running
The bottom line is we do get more power and better fuel economy and lower operating temps

this may be redundant but some may not have seen the previous posts by lot of you guys had on here

martin

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Post #: 37

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 9:33:37 PM

AndyW

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From: Timmins, ON, CANADA
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Thanks to Greg, I ventured to have a look at JD's starter fluid MSDS. I found the company that provides the fluid to John Deere.

Company Technical Chemical Company
Technical Chemical Company/TCC
Contact Name Glori Wilcoxon
City Cleburne
State / Province Texas
Country United States
Phone (800) 527-0885 x
Email gwilcoxon@technicalchemical.com
Web http://www.technicalchemical.com

A toll free number is provided so I called. Glori listened with amusement to my query but she understood fully what we were doing.

According to her, the fluid they provide JD is, by percentage,

83.59 % ether
.68 % oil
9.7 % propane/butane blend
6% carbon dioxide.

She explained that the C02 evaporates virtually instantly no matter what method you use to evacuate the can. However, the butane/propane blend will stay in solution for some time, especially if you freeze the can.

I take an 8 ounce jar and punch a small hole in the lid. Then I replace the original spray button with one that uses a tube, I think that's from WD40. Just spray into the jar through the hole in the lid and that guarantees that virtually all of the other 20% is evaporated off. She confirmed that this was a good strategy.

Meanwhile the MSDS lists the main ingredient as 1,1-Oxybisethane. So I asked her about that. Well, even she was taken aback a bit but after a few minutes on hold she told me that the number under that word, 60-29-7 is the CAS number. This is a number assigned to every chemical that lists all the names given to a particular chemical. So I looked it up.

Here, http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/E2340.htm

We find,

1. Product Identification
Synonyms: Ether; ether,anhydrous; Diethyl ether; 1,1'Oxybisethane;ethyl oxide; diethyl oxide; Ethyl ether anhydrous;
CAS No.: 60-29-7
Molecular Weight: 74.12
Chemical Formula: C2H5OC2H5
Product Codes:
J.T. Baker: 9238, 9244, 9246, 9248, 9250
Mallinckrodt: 0848

Further, she advised that the best site for information on chemistry is, www.chemfinder.com

So I looked up ether and got this,

http://chemfinder.cambridgesoft.com/result.asp

Greg is right. Not doing a thorough job in your research and then passing off mis-information doesn't take us to where we want to be. Thanks Greg.

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Andy Woitowicz

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Post #: 38

RE: diesel finally on the way?? - 6/13/2008 9:49:33 PM

AndyW

Posts: 1897
Joined: 1/17/2003
From: Timmins, ON, CANADA
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Martin,

Your right, no way that our engines atomize our fuel as well as "real" diesel engines. However, and I'm talking conversions (which hold their own), porting design has been optimized for glow fuel. I'm just wondering if redesigning the porting of our glow conversions might not yield some interesting results.

That's where the Norvels come in. As the pistons are nickle plated, you can use them in your engine of choice but make a new cylinder out of aluminum and anodize it. It won't be hard anodized to the quality of a Norvel but it'll function well enough for the experiment. Pictured is the adaptation of a Norvel .15 cylinder into an OS .10. I just need to make a duplicate but with changes to the porting design to see if that would help. I have to find the right grade of aluminum though.

I used 6061 to make some pistons and then I anodized them. I used a lap with diamond paste and got a good result. The engine ran real well inside a chromed brass cylinder but as it ran, it sagged and slowed down. I built in some decent pinch that, when hot, became extremely tight. So tight that I could barely turn it over. As the engine cooled, it regained it's normal fit. So many times I've read that ABC works because the brass expands more than aluminum with heat. Not so with all grades of aluminum.

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