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Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/12/2008 11:35:35 PM   
wb4snu


 

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From: morganton, NC, USA
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I am scratch building 2 of the Super Kaos. The original prints show a VECO 61 and was wondering if the OS 55ax would be an equal to the VECO 61 in power. A friend of mine that will get 1 of the 2 has a 55ax that I have set it up for but haven't installed the mount yet for mine. I know from reading some of the post here lately that it is a toss up between a few motors. I guess I need a little more input before I spend the money for a motor. I am an old flyer that used to use Super Tiger's for everything but haven't used any since they changed hands. Me and a few others in my club are wanting to fly the SPA Circuit but don't know if the price of gas will hold us back. Only time will tell on that. I have created an interest in Pattern in my club and it beats flying holes in the sky. Any help on deciding about the motor will be appreciated.
Thanks
Richard
AMA 95267

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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/13/2008 1:06:07 AM   
Jeff Worsham


 

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Hi Richard,
Jim is running a 55AX in a Daddy Rabbit (pretty light one). Maybe he can give you some input? Here's his plane:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6975139/anchors_6975139/mpage_1/key_daddy%252Crabbit/anchor/tm.htm#6975139

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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/13/2008 1:56:48 AM   
ChiefK


 

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Richard,

I've flown a lot of SPA era planes and I'm currently flying a SIG Somethin' Extra with an O.S. 55AX. The 55 is strong but a good 60 is stonger. I've been running 11 x 7 props, and recently an old Top Flite Power Prop 11 x 7.5. the .55 turns them both quite well, but personally, I'd go for a strong .60 in the Super Kaos.

Greg

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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/13/2008 1:01:40 PM   
Skylane



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From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
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As is often the case, there are several variables to consider. I started flying my Cutlass Supreme with an OS 61 FX. However, I had trouble getting the CG right and I had to keep adding lead to the tail. Finally, I bought an OS 55 AX which is 5.1 oz lighter than the 61 FX with nearly the same power. I then was able to remove about 3 oz of lead from the tail and the resulting CG was perfect. The plane was now 1/2 pound lighter and it flies great. I am currently using it in SPA Sportsman.

Now, consider the Super Kaos. I flew one in competition in 1979 using a Kraft 61 - now RJL 61 and available from www.mecoa.com.

RJL 61: wt with muffler = 20.3 oz, rated hp=1.8 @ 16,500 rpm

OS 61 FX: wt with muffler = 23.6 oz, rated hp=1.9 @ 16,000 rpm

OS 55 AX: wt with muffler = 18.5 oz, rated hp=1.75 @ 16,000 rpm

Now, these days we prop our engines to turn a lot less than 16,000 rom. My 55 AX on 20% fuel turns 11, 600 rom with an APC 11x8. But, use the hp figures as a relative guide.

The 55 AX puts out a bit less than the 61s, as others have stated. But it is also lighter. However, the 55 AX compares favorably with the RJL 61 which I know flies a Super Kaos very well.

So, you have options. Slightly more power, but at a weight penalty. Either will work, but the lighter plane may well fly better. I know that that is the case with my Cutlass. A lot will depend on the individual airframe and equipment location. In the case of the Cutlass there was little choice as to where to put the RX, battery, and servos and it has a relatively short tail moment. Hence, the lighter engine works well. If engineered from the beginning, one could move servos, RX, and battery to the rear to help offset a heavier engine. Also, it is worth considering that the OS 61 FX really liked a 12x8 prop and you should consider ground clearance if using a nose gear while you are still at the building stage.

As I said, there are many variables and several different combinations can be made to work. Personally, in the older classic pattern planes that were designed around the smaller 60s of that era I find the 55 AX to be a good solution. But I will be using my 61 FX in my new Deception I am building and also probably in my new Compensator (I haven't decided on this one yet - I'll have to wait and see the all up weight and how the CG comes out.)

Jeff


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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/13/2008 1:15:09 PM   
rainedave



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I don't own a Veco .61, but I have a rebuilt LN K&B .61 (non PDP), and I have a new AX .55. It would be interesting to tach the two using the same props and fuel.

The K&B w/muffler weighs 18ozs., or 510grms. The AX .55 weighs 18.5ozs., or 525grms., a half ounce difference. Their physical sizes are almost identical; the K&B's heads sits up a little higher. The distance from the backplates to the prop drives is about 3 3/8" for both. So, the AX would drop right into the nose of the Kaos without any mods.

From what I know about the two engines, I would give the edge to the AX .55.

Now, current production sixties are a whole different ball game. They are all Schneurle ported and weigh, on average, about six or seven ounces more than the K&B or Veco. They are also physically larger and would probably require a few mods to the firewall and/or nose of the model. If you want similar weight, size and power to the Veco in a current engine, the AX .55 is right there, IMO.

Another option is the new Enya 61CX. It's a "fifty-case sixty" that is roughly the same size and weight of the Veco and AX.

David

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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/13/2008 2:05:03 PM   
WEDJ



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My 55 AX in a Sr Falcon swings a 12 x 7 at 10,400, running 15%

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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/13/2008 4:35:37 PM   
Ed Cregger



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You know, guys, the only reason that the pattern folks went with largish props was because of noise abatement and not because their engine/airframe performed better. It performed worse, but if you didn't meet the sound requirements, you didn't fly at all.

Now there is a generation of folks flying models that do not know this little piece of history. They actually think that the greater efficiency of larger props out weighs the fact that they are choking down their two-stroke glow engines in such a manner that they produce way less thrust at the proper speed than they are capable of producing. If we were flying turnaround pattern, the larger props might be okay, but we are flying classic pattern designs that need to fly fast in order to fly properly, as they were intended.

A 12x7 or 8 on a .61 is blasphemy. On a forty sized crankcase engine it is insanity.

20% nitro? Not you, Nick. No way. Not for me. High nitro is for over propped or junk engines and folks that don't know how to properly tune. My tongue is in cheek, so don't get too excited. 8>


Ed Cregger


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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/13/2008 6:08:54 PM   
wb4snu


 

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I THANK everyone that has responded. I think the decision has been made to put the 55ax in the Super Kaos. Instead of the wooden motor mounts, I have put a nylon mount in and could change it out if the 60 size motor was used later on. When it is finished I'll post some photos of the two. I am going to use Koverall on mine and I think the other one will probably get Monokote that I am giving to my friend. It will be fun to watch to scratch built identical planes flying in formation.
Thanks again.
Richard

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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/13/2008 7:01:44 PM   
bob27s



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You will be pleased by the OS55.

Avoid over-propping it. OS recommends some large props ..... strickly because a desired to keep it a quiet engine. But as you can see by the HP info quoted up top there, the engine produces peak HP at higher rpm.

The engine runs its very best propped to run between 12,500 and 15,000 peak ground rpm in box stock configuration.

An 11x6 works well, an 11x5 is darn good too. An 11x7 runs nicely as well. Yes, it will turn larger props very well. But for the Kaos application these will get you the best balance of performance.

The engine resonds VERY well to adding a jett-stream muffler to it. Gain is 1500 rpm on average. There are quite a few OS55AX engines flying with some Jett help, and all of the owners have raved about the performance. With an 11x6 prop, it will outperform (power wise) the Veco, blackhead or bluehead .60 engines of that era, and actually can produce better power than some of the current .61 engines running stock mufflers. And the bonus is the 55AX is light weight.

An example of the performance I have seen... normal 15% fuel...

11 x 6 APC with stock muffler: 13400 rpm with Jett-stream muffler: 14900 rpm (demonstrated best balance of performance on 5.5-7.0 lb sport/pattern)

11 x 7 APC with stock muffler: 11,800 rpm with Jett-stream: over 13,000 rpm - (largest one would use for this tuned system)

Nothing wrong with the full stock configuration at all..... its a heck of an engine.

Providing an option here for some bolt-on performance boost.


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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/14/2008 7:38:54 PM   
jim52519


 

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I am currently using the OS .55AX in a scratch built Dirty Birdy. I am very happy with this combination. I think it would be an excelent engine for a Super Kaos.

Jim DeYoung

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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/15/2008 12:29:45 AM   
rainedave



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From: Greensboro, NC, USA
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Here you go:

190228068700

David

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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/15/2008 1:38:50 AM   
wb4snu


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rainedave

Here you go:

190228068700

David



Thanks Dave. I have allready set it up for the 55ax. The Veco sure looked good. Thinking back, I have never used a perry carb. I understand they were the "Cats Pajamas" for carbs. I remember those that used them went to the perry carb because their motor wouldn't idle good and they were known for good idleing when set up right. Probably would have been good to bid on the Veco but I am not that much into nostalga. I do have a bunch of 1/2A 60's and 70's planes and kits but the only reason I guess I am building the Super Kaos is to fly in the SPA meets that I can attend. I fly a 40 size Kaos 3 or 4 days aweek. It has an LA 40 size motor and seems to be one of the best running motors I have used in the last few years. Not as powerful as others I have but it cranks on first flip and idles very good. Years ago I ran mostly Super Tigre's and really enjoyed them but don't have much experience on the newer China made ones. I was wanting to come to the reedy race but work got in the way. Sounds like I missed a good time.
Richard

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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/15/2008 2:43:06 AM   
Ed Cregger



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Now this latest information changes my recommendation considerably. If you are happy using an OS .40 LA on a Super Kaos or Dirty Birdy .40, then you will be tickled pink with an OS.55AX on a Super Kaos.


Ed Cregger


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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/15/2008 3:12:32 AM   
wb4snu


 

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From: morganton, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger

Now this latest information changes my recommendation considerably. If you are happy using an OS .40 LA on a Super Kaos or Dirty Birdy .40, then you will be tickled pink with an OS.55AX on a Super Kaos.


Ed Cregger



Hi Ed
Do you fly pattern much?? I am having trouble with the double stall turn with the 40 Kaos. I have full throw on the rudder but it will not turn when it gets that slow. I have never been to a pattern meet so I don't know exactly how to adjust for this . I have downloaded the stuff from the SPA website and am not having any trouble with anything else except the stall turn. Also I am assuming that faster speed is not the question but on control and approaches is the issue. Am I wrong in looking at it this way. I am not against speed by any means but since I have never seen a pattern run is it all that necessary?? Hope I didn't step on anyones toes about speed but I am confused!!!!!!
Thanks
Richard

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IF IT''S NOT BROKEN THEN KEEP FIXING IT TILL IT IS

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RE: Super Kaos and OS 55ax?? - 6/15/2008 3:33:14 AM   
Ed Cregger



Posts: 7736
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Ringgold, GA, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wb4snu


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger

Now this latest information changes my recommendation considerably. If you are happy using an OS .40 LA on a Super Kaos or Dirty Birdy .40, then you will be tickled pink with an OS.55AX on a Super Kaos.


Ed Cregger



Hi Ed
Do you fly pattern much?? I am having trouble with the double stall turn with the 40 Kaos. I have full throw on the rudder but it will not turn when it gets that slow. I have never been to a pattern meet so I don't know exactly how to adjust for this . I have downloaded the stuff from the SPA website and am not having any trouble with anything else except the stall turn. Also I am assuming that faster speed is not the question but on control and approaches is the issue. Am I wrong in looking at it this way. I am not against speed by any means but since I have never seen a pattern run is it all that necessary?? Hope I didn't step on anyones toes about speed but I am confused!!!!!!
Thanks
Richard






No, not regular pattern flying these days. I just mess around with the classic pattern ships of yesterday. I never was any hot stuff in pattern, other than being a super enthusiastic fan of pattern. Having had polio at the age of five and lacking the financial prowess of Hanno Prettner, I was mediocre at best, although I did manage to win a few contests and usually placed in the top three postitions when I didn't win (first loser, second loser...).

The stall turn was a maneuver that