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100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/23/2008 10:42:14 AM   
longdan



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I don't want to spark off yet another debate about castor vs. synthetic (this has been done to death many times over), but I am wondering about the benefits of using 100% castor oil over a mixture of castor and synthetic oil in 1/2A engines, namely cox TDs and norvel revlite engines.

I often see advice saying "make sure you use fuel that has at least 20% oil with at least half of it being castor". I also see just as often "make sure your fuel has at least 20% castor oil in it". Usually the advice is followed up with "add a couple of ounces of castor to every gallon of fuel".

Is there a real benefit to using 100% castor as opposed to 50% castor?

I have heard many times over the pros and cons of both types, but this is usually when talking about fuel with either one or the other, not both.

My take on it is, that I basically have (almost) a 100% guarantee of not ruining a 1/2A engine under normal sport flying use if I use 100% castor (and don't run it lean), but is this guarantee reduced if the castor content drops to 50% of the total oil content?
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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/23/2008 1:55:07 PM   
combatpigg



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Well, according to the exhaustive research that was done in the other recent thread, that guy toasted 2 SureStarts fairly quickly that he ran on castor.

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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/23/2008 2:58:06 PM   
Tee Bee


 

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Many of us fly a 50/50 synthetic and castor blend with success. I personally run the Sig 25% nitro fuel but do add about an oz of extra castor to the quart because it makes me feel better. Lots of others seem to do the same. The Cox engines I run regularly don't seem to be wearing out, other than needing a piston reset from time to time. For the record, I'm running a BW .049, Surestart .049, Medallion .09, and Hypercolor Skyline .049 pretty regularly. The TD .010s, somewhat less regularly, but no evident wear issues using the same fuel.

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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/23/2008 3:27:05 PM   
gcb



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To make a short story long, in the early Cox days, there were no synthetics (AFAIK). People who ran the engines hard had problems with varnish forming on the cylinder. Occasionally you would have to remove the cylinder and "de-varnish". Two popular ways were to use a wet Brillo pad or or gun cleaner and a gun bore wire brush. I'm sure there were other ways.

When synthetic came along, it was noted that synthetic kept the cylinder clean, but too many too-lean runs would wear the ball socket a LOT.

A mix of half castor and half synthetic protects the ball socket and prevents varnish forming. Actually, a low percentage of synthetic will keep it clean. Some also run all castor, then run some synthetic to clean it.

The castor varnish is not a bad thing, it is protection for over-lean runs. Your choice. People have been successful running all-castor and all-synthetic.

IMHO, a more important thing is to keep the percentage at about 20%, although there again, many run 18% without problem.

Also remember that this is only one opinion.

George

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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/23/2008 3:56:17 PM   
Remby


 

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Another factor is the burning off of the synth oil in the fuel, I see somthing like this with klotz in the Sig 1/2a fuel, but the deposits did not show in a pure castor oil mixed fuel.

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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/23/2008 4:08:37 PM   
rainedave



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One of my LHS's stocks Morgan's fuel (Omega and Cool Power) and the other stocks Powermaster. I run a lot of thirty year old engines including non-ringed Enyas. Lately, I have been using Powermaster GMA with 5% nitro and 22% oil which is 50/50 synth/castor. I feel safe using this in my older engines, but I never peak them out all the way, either. For 1/2A I have been using Sig Champion 25% with the 20% 50/50 oil mixture. I also add about an ounce of castor to new quarts.

I would like it if one of my LHS's stocked Sig fuel, especially their 100% castor blend. But, I don't burn enough fuel to justify buying a case online.

I just recently rebuilt a used Enya SS25BB installing new bearings and a new piston/sleeve set. It is a lapped, non-ringed setup. It has about an hour of short, rich runs on it using the Powermaster GMA fuel. It is getting smoother and more reliable with every flight, but the idle isn't completely steady yet. The compression is great and there are no visible sings of wear on the piston. If this engine survives another gallon or so, and continues to improve, I will be convinced that using the GMA 50/50 oil mixture is good enough.

David

< Message edited by rainedave -- 6/23/2008 4:10:21 PM >

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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/23/2008 4:34:38 PM   
Demon-Leather


 

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"Back in the day"(the 60's).. Fox had a glow fuel that promised to make worn engines run like new.. turns out it did work (though they never ran exactly like new) All they did was add more castor to the fuel. It will take up slack in a worn piston and increase that weak compression. Unlike everyone else, I like running OKCub .049's. Most people don't like them as they say they're slow & dogs in the air, but they do fine for me. Along with my Andersons, Hollands,K&B's etc. I wouldn't use synthetic in any of them, because they weren't made for it. I even up the castor in my fuel, like Fox did. So far they're all running,.. years & years later. For the new Norvels AP's ThunderTigers...I think synthetic may be fine, but the few I have get real castor. I also go by history. The Germans, in WWI had a hard time getting castor for their rotary engines during the middle to end of the war, and switched to a synthetic blend. They had more planes fall out of the sky due to engine siezure than enemy gunfire...I've been taught, If you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it.... Bob


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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/23/2008 7:29:45 PM   
MJD


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: longdan
My take on it is, that I basically have (almost) a 100% guarantee of not ruining a 1/2A engine under normal sport flying use if I use 100% castor (and don't run it lean), but is this guarantee reduced if the castor content drops to 50% of the total oil content?


I do not believe so for one minute. Offering my personal opinions on the subject:

- A sensible fuel for 1/2A's with ball and socket joints has 50% of castor as minimum in it's oil package, and the balance synthetic.
- I think it is smart to have at least 20% total oil. Is 22-23% "best"? Maybe. 20% might be best. Doesn't hurt.
- I also think it is acceptable to run 18% 50/50 syn/cas if that is all you have available. I have done so a lot, in .049 reedies, and enjoyed long life and good performance. The caveat is to know how to set a 1/2A needle with some respect for the engine.
- Too much oil degrades performance and doesn't add to longetivity, at least not enough to warrant the negative issues.
- The 20% castor/80% synthetic rules apply to typical larger sport engines, ringed or not, with plated cylinders esp. although a broken in lapped engine might be happy too but whatever - I don't own many of those. Anyhow, 1/2A's work on different rules of thumb.
- 1/2A's with bushed conrods are probably content on 20% castor/80% synth, but maybe 50/50 is better for the other benefits castor offers.
- The conrod and specifically the bushing/bearing design and metallurgy have lots to do with overall oil requirements, both in type and percentage. So don't be surprised by the special needs of the ball-and-socket engines.

Digressing from oil a bit while I'm at it:

- This is not an oil issue, but 15% is the minimum nitro content for Cox .049's, and 25% for .020's and especially .010's. Below these levels, from my experience, they start to run like crap and will p- you off eventually. And I don't care about Texaco engines, or the the occasional guy who insists they run 10% in their .049's and "that's all they need", because I think it is BS. While you might be able to needle them to the point they stay running, why be a miser when the only return is marginal performance and handling? 25% is ho-hum everyday sport fuel for 1/2A's and smaller - the numbers are just different with these guys.
- Don't put Armor-All in your fuel. The silicone oils poison the catalytic action of the glow plug element over time with deposits, and shorten plug life. A better idea is to a good job balancing props and the tank installation. Many fuels contain anti-foaming additives anyway.
- Balance your props with all the care and skill you have at your disposal.
- Keep everything to do with the engine and fuel cleaner than clean.

As I said, these are my personal opinions! But I've run just a few of these guys in my lifetime. Way more than many, and way less than some. But they always seem to run well for me and I still love small engines, so something must be working.

MJD





< Message edited by MJD -- 6/24/2008 4:38:07 AM >

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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/23/2008 8:06:25 PM   
Andrew


 

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The blend that I've been running for some time is:

22.5% nitro
21.25% oil - the oil is a 20/80 synthetic/castor mix

Because I wanted to experiment a bit with percentages, I've been mixing CoolPower Sidewinder Pro car fuels. Sidewinder Pro is available in 20/10 and 30/10 blends. With the low oil content, I had a little more latitude in adding oil and still maintaining a decent nitro content. I use Klotz BeNol for castor.

My engines tend to start well and run well plus the synthetic seems to hold the varnish buildup to a minimum. Although I wanted to mix primarily for NORVEL, I use the same fuel exclusively in my reedies. I did get a group of COX Sure Starts that had what felt to be softer pistons (based on the force needed to reset the piston socket), but I have not run this batch on the Pro mix for any length of time and have no feel for how they will hold up.

For information on castor and synthetics, you might want to visit Klotz Lubricants and check the tech sheets on BeNol and Techniplate. I usually pay attention to the clean burn, film strength, flash point and rpm limit ratings for the lubes.

< Message edited by Andrew -- 6/23/2008 10:28:26 PM >


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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/23/2008 10:14:39 PM   
makoman1860


 

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Hey Guys,
Funny I saw this thread, Larry Renger suggested I run a 50/50 blend oil at 20% volume for another endurance test. This I did with the same result as the 100% castor and 100% synthetic runs. Ruined ball and socket joint. From all of this I am gathering the viewpoint that the sure start engines are....garbage... for durability. As an aside, I have been running a 95/5 castor/synthetic blend in my diesels per a manufacturers suggestion. The 5% of oil volume in synthetic keeps the engine clean and from gumming up tight in a week of non use. I dunno about you guys, but I am forming these rules in my own head for 1/2A sport engines.

1-100% castor lube is fool proof for engine wear and corrosion protection
2-5% of the oil volume in synthetic is all thats needed to keep the engines from gumming too badly in the off season
3-50/50 blends seem to work just fine on all engines
4-100% synthetic or 80/20 blends seem to work great on a well designed "modern" engine.
5-NO oil type can help a poorly built engine ( i.e. my sure starts ), and No oil prevents the last of the c*x engines from wearing out prematurely.

Now keep in mind Ive run only 3 of these engines on endurance, maybe if I ran 20 I might get one to live. Its too bad, the piston to cylinder fit is still good after a quart of fuel, but that dang ball and socket just goes away.

-Aaron

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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/24/2008 3:35:29 AM   
SST



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I have successfully used:
Byron 25%, which contains 16% castor (broken-in Norvel .049s & .074s) I really like the way this stuff ran, but I picked it up in FLA, and my LHS doesn't carry it.
SIG 25% Champion 1/2A fuel, with 20% castor. Ran OK, but not as well as the Byron.
SIG 35% Champion 1/2A fuel, with 20% castor. I am using it currently, and it is giving me better runs than the 25%, and about as good as the Byron, though it is messier.
I started and broke in most of my motors on Omega 15%, with a 50/50 20% oil mix.

I have had no fuel-related issues with any of these. The worst problem I have had was burning out glowplug elements before I 86'ed the rubber fuel bulb and went to a plastic syringe.

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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/25/2008 1:10:16 PM   
Yuu


 

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Makoman... interesting info about your Surestarts wearing out the ball sockets; but you gave no into about the RPM or the % nitro or the prop size. Will you please tell us more about those things?

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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/25/2008 2:08:21 PM   
longdan



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quote:

1-100% castor lube is fool proof for engine wear and corrosion protection
2-5% of the oil volume in synthetic is all thats needed to keep the engines from gumming too badly in the off season
3-50/50 blends seem to work just fine on all engines
4-100% synthetic or 80/20 blends seem to work great on a well designed "modern" engine.
5-NO oil type can help a poorly built engine ( i.e. my sure starts ), and No oil prevents the last of the c*x engines from wearing out prematurely.


Thanks for this info. This has basically answered my original questions.

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RE: 100% castor vs 50/50 castor/synthetic - 6/29/2008 6:17:00 AM