Crosswind takeoffs and landings  
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Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 6:49:56 AM   
Adui


 

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OK, Im going to ask a bit of advice on these. I've been doing them for a while now, Seems like anytime there is any wind at all its a cross wind!

Sometimes I get it all right and have a scale looking takeoff, even with a 5-8mph crosswind.

Then there is times like Sunday.. Lets just say its a darn good thing that my OS .46FX runs well..

I Taxied out, then slowly throttled up heading down the runway. She pulled one way, (my nose gear is not so good from a few too many hard landings) I over corrected. No big I figure, she's at air speed now, so as she hurtles diagonally across the runway I pull up a bit more than normal, but not too much or so I thought. Just as she rolls out another big gust hits her. (Weather report said we had steady 8-10mph winds with gusts to 15)
She flips strait up, and pivots slightly so the belly is now facing directly across the runway toward the safe flying area of the field. So now my poor little Arrow Trainer is making a very good attempt at pure vertical as she climbs out going straight up, the wind pushing her backward toward the no fly side of the runway. I use a judicious amount of down elevator to try pitching her forward into a more acceptable climb AND getting her to stop coming the wrong way. Not enough, still vertical, still being pushed slowly backward as she climbs. So, I take a chance, aileron to roll her around a bit, and then rudder to kick the tail out and force it to do something other than vertical climbing. It worked, I leveled the wings and had it flying full tilt strait out and away from the runway.
I am quite certain any spectators watching from the museum end of the field were in awe at the skill of the pilot that could make a plane maneuver like that, (Would have looked AWESOME to me had I not been the pilot) too bad it weren't skill but a bit of instinctive reaction and plain old dumb luck..

Now, I have done my best to remember the events and describe them accurately, including my control inputs and what I think I had in mind at the time, (It all happened pretty quickly so much of my inputs were instinct and reacting to what it was NOT doing as I tried to tell it to behave)

Educate me, what did I do right, and more important, what could I have done better? Aborting takeoff when it wiggled too much is a given, and in retrospect i think I should have aborted. What is there AFTER I committed to takeoff?

< Message edited by Adui -- 7/15/2008 6:51:37 AM >


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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 11:03:20 AM   
bingo field



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If you didn't crash, you did it right. This is where your judgment kicks in, whether to launch or not, or maybe setup on a diagonal on the runway to deal with the wind. I have found that keeping it on the ground, rolling it out farther before lifting off is helpful in this situation. More difficult with a tail dragger, where the tail is already "flying" after about 10 ft. Quick corrections to the attitude of the plane is necessary, that is why you don't try to train absolute newbies in gusty winds of this type. It also makes landings a bit more challenging, when a gust can add or subtract 3 to 5 feet from your altitude while waiting for ground effect to disappear. Glad you made it. That Arrow is a great plane.

< Message edited by bingo field -- 7/15/2008 11:05:20 AM >


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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 1:44:06 PM   
gregoryda


 

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I did something similar last week. I was zig zagging on takeoff, straight for a second so I gave it full throttle. One oversteer and she was off to the left at a diagonal heading for the weeds. My brain said abort, my left hand pulled back on the trottle...but I pulled up on the elevator at the same time for take off, oh crap! She jumps up about 10' off the ground with no power now heading for the trees. I hear yelling from behind me....power power power, full power and the plane lumbers and dips as I turned her away from the trees but recovers and pulls away heading downwind. It took a while for the heart rate to slow down. From the gallery I hear, he's a newbie and is probably nervous.... damn right I was. Lesson learned, if your not straight on takeoff.....ABORT and try again.

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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 2:10:32 PM   
flyX


 

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That's why I use sims such as FMS..some models don't fly right.lol Or I adjust perimeters to models so they're wacked.
It becomes more reflex than anything. If I think too much about it..it's too late.
when it gets hairy like that..there's no telling , So most of the time I'll abort or my reflex is to add power before moving
the other stick. I don't really think too much about it.

I've retraced my mistakes from crashes. Most of which was from adding input to control surfaces. I'll either over correct from instink
and yank the stick in the opposite direction. Or sometimes I'll add oppsite direction sticks and expecting the model to correct...but not enough
air blowing on the control surface to make it adjust and my brain gose into a hip up...thinking there's might something worng with my radio system.lol
Or pull up instead of pushing..this will increase the AOA . It happens very fast of course.

I also fly stun kites and over the years I've delevope an image in head of wind patterns blowing in circles or pockets of wind.
So I undstand it's more than just a cross wind sometimes..it more like a swirling pocket of wind crossing the runway.

On take off...a shallow angle of AOA and power. I bump the rudder stick..just to see.lol

Trainer wants to roll from rudder input becuase of the higher diahedral.

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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 5:25:58 PM   
n19htmare


 

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I put anywhere from one to two hours on the sim daily if possible. I do it for two things, one to improve my ability to judge the direction of the plan and get the orientation mastered and 2nd is to keep my reflexes up to par and to improve them. I think the SIM's been a great help to me for those two things.
And whenever I'm curious as w hat certain stick movement does to a plane, I try it on the SIM.

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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 5:53:07 PM   
Adui


 

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Gee whiz.. No magic bullet for this one eh?? ahh well LOL!!

Keep the comments rolling, Im trying to soak it up and learn more!

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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 6:57:04 PM   
flyX


 

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I image what you wrote was..you used the rudder trying to slip....but the cross wind
was at a certain angle. So somehow at a proper angle the wind lifted the wing that you where trying to
piont the model's nose into...cuase it to roll in the opposite direction.lol almost to an inverted position.
Thank god you pushed.lol...but at a slower air speed or slow engine rpm , there's was less wind blowing
over the elevator, that's why you had to add a lot of elevators. Plus you where also trying to make an outside
loop on a flat bottom trainer.lol The lift is on the opposite side of the wings.
I guess you add power and flew out of it.

That's why I have .40 bricks or .60 size models. They cut through the wind better on those not so perfect days.

< Message edited by flyX -- 7/15/2008 6:59:56 PM >

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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 7:19:44 PM   
Adui


 

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Actually the Arrow is a semi symetrical wing. Not quite flat bottom. I imagine that helped a great deal LOL

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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 7:24:38 PM   
Adui


 

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The scary part, is in spite of how fast this all occurred I can honestly remember thinking thru 99% of my control inputs as I did it. ESPECIALLY the rudder throw. Well maybe Thru the inputs is the wrong term, perhaps thinking TOO the inputs. like "Ok pitch nose down a bit" as I added down elevator, and "well crap that didnt work roll it and hit rudder hard over to get it out of this vertical before it stalls," as I added the aileron and rudder inputs that finally righted the bird.

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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 7:36:07 PM   
AstroDad


 

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Adui,

sounds like you did every thing fine.

will your arrow actually stall at full throttle? I ask because I have the arrow with a .55 AX which only has 1.75 HP compared with your .46 AX with 1.65 HP. Mine is happy to climb vertical even though we have about the same power. my arrow should be a little heavier I expect. I do have dual batteries, volt-watch, and an engine that is a few oz heavier.

a problem I am starting to have with mine is due to me pulling vertical so quickly on takeoff, I am wearing away the balsa on the tail from smacking it on the ground as I pitch up.

the way I normally handle cross-winds is to just take off into wind even if that is different direction than the runway.

< Message edited by AstroDad -- 7/15/2008 7:38:46 PM >

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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 7:55:04 PM   
Deathbunny_SG


 

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Flying skill or skill in most sports or things like this is all about "instinctive reaction". If you have to take time to think about what to do more then likely its already to late for the thing you figured out to help you anyway.

Good job on the take off, this is what the learning process is all about.

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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 8:02:47 PM   
Adui


 

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I really dont know if it would stall per se, I do know from flying way up high that it will stop climbing if I leave it vertical too long, but what it does then is not exactly what I would call a stall, more like a slight departure from its flight path. It just sort of wobbles till I let it off the verticle. (I honestly think if it had just a tad more power it would hover LOL)

I just worry about too much vertical ascent when Im low to the ground, if it should dead stick for any reason that low I am SCREWED!

< Message edited by Adui -- 7/15/2008 8:03:37 PM >


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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 9:16:08 PM   
flyX


 

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It has plenty of power to hover or torque roll.

Practice doing the stall truns..2-3 mistake high at first, it's safer than doing a harrier on a trainer.
This way you can see if the model is tracking striaght on verticles too.
Then try to get it to do a water fall.
This will get you'll comfortible with using the throttle and recovering the model from a stall.
Now, you know why I fiddle with the needle valve somtimes, to get better transition or throttle response.
After you can't really get it to do a (tail slide) water fall..right.lol
It's actaully easier to try to it hover ..becuase you'll just give throttle right before it falls after it stalls.lol
It's actaully easier to do a hover than torque rolls.

< Message edited by flyX -- 7/15/2008 9:18:22 PM >

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RE: Crosswind takeoffs and landings - 7/15/2008 9:54:28 PM   
Adui


 

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You know, I guess I should give myself more credit. I posted this to see if there was any other reactions I should have had. None seem forthcoming, in part because you hadto be there to know I am sure. However, the bottom line I suppose is as bingo put it, I didnt crash so I must've done it right.

I just hate it when the thing does not do what I tell it too LOL! Wind can be fun, but it can be SCARY too..

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