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Latest jet- The Vortex 32 - 7/24/2008 12:59:57 AM   
Rube Goldberg


 

Posts: 204
Joined: 6/5/2006
From: Whale Tail, RI, USA
Status: offline 		Has anybody seen one of these in person? Supposed to weigh in at 4.6 lbs.-I sent a fellow modeler to the Nitroplanes site to take a look as he's a turbine type, said it looked very similar-perhaps just a couple inches smaller in wingspan to a turbine jet kit from Spain from a few years back that another fellow modeler built and flew a couple weeks ago......at about 17 lbs.!

Rube

< Message edited by Rube Goldberg -- 8/15/2008 11:18:08 PM >
       Post #: 1

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 7/24/2008 3:33:35 AM   
oceansfiftyseven



Posts: 168
Joined: 9/29/2004
From: Seattle, WA, USA
Status: online 		http://www.nitroplanes.com/20nimiamvo32.html
Man that thing is ... um... very good looking!

< Message edited by oceansfiftyseven -- 7/24/2008 3:35:01 AM >

(in reply to Rube Goldberg)
       Post #: 2

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 7/24/2008 6:28:17 AM   
Rube Goldberg


 

Posts: 204
Joined: 6/5/2006
From: Whale Tail, RI, USA
Status: offline 		I agree

The red white and blue one with the stars is just a bit....how would you say...... "Pole Cattish" for me. The white one looks really nice, and with a little duct work for cooling *that* thing is begging for an OS Wankel!

Rube

*that* is scheduled to be "this" come next Monday

< Message edited by Rube Goldberg -- 7/24/2008 6:31:54 AM >

(in reply to oceansfiftyseven)
       Post #: 3

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 7/30/2008 4:46:31 PM   
Rube Goldberg


 

Posts: 204
Joined: 6/5/2006
From: Whale Tail, RI, USA
Status: offline 		Well, "Brown" delivered my new Vortex 32 on Monday as scheduled. Initial thoughts:

I ordered the "white' version. The trim scheme is similar to that shown with an additional piece of trim on the wings. The blue is much darker than the one as advertised, and the bottom of the wings and the stabilzer are trimmed same as the "miss america" version. Build quality is quite nice. The fiberglass fuselage section is really nicely done. Weights:

Fuselage and canopy 14 oz.
Stab 3 oz.
both wings 15 oz.
both booms 8 oz.
bag of hardware 7 oz.

That works out to be 47 ounces total; according to the manufacturer ready to fly weight spec'd at 4.6 lbs. or about 74 ounces. That leaves me right at 27 ounces for power and radio gear. Won't need much glue other than the hinges. This thing pretty much just bolts together and could be built in a few hours easy.

The "rub". This model was apparently designed for electric power only. No fuel tank, no engine mounts are included. No surprise on those two items as they are not depicted in the advertisement. The firewall in the rear is pretty beefy and is laser cut for an electric motor radial mount. Given that the typical 32-40 size glow comparable brushless motor is going to weigh in the 6 ounce range, and the batteries needed to get 700 watts are going to be large and heavy-mounted near the nose of the fuselage the use of a glow 32-40 size engine is going to be a difficult task as they typically weigh 12-18 ounces. That means the nose is going to have to be LOADED with a LOT of weight. The ply former for the nose gear is pre-installed but it does have some lightening holes laser cut. I suppose one could fill forward of the nose gear with lead shot and then seal it off with silicon sealent-just in case you wanted to remove the lead to go to an electric setup.
So it comes down to either a light electric motor behind the CG with heavy batteries forward of the CG and at 700 watts a lot of $$$ in batteries and a very short flight time-I would guess 5 minutes maximum, or a much heavier glow engine and a lot of weight in the nose but much longer flight times.
I suppose at this point I'm just going to have to fit it all together and put about 2 or 3 ounces on the tail to simulate the weight of the 4 servos/extension leads that are mounted in the rear of the booms for elevator and rudder control (HS-81's should fit and are about the lightest I've found), plop a glow engine where it belongs, a flight pack battery just behind the nose gear mount area and then start hanging weight from the nose to acheive the proper CG.

Again, really nicely done model, just thought I'd pass on my initial thoughts to those thinking of purchasing this one!

Rube

< Message edited by Rube Goldberg -- 7/30/2008 4:54:41 PM >

(in reply to Rube Goldberg)
       Post #: 4

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 8/7/2008 12:27:47 PM   
CrashPro



Posts: 666
Joined: 7/10/2003
From: Indio, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Hey Rube

Just wondering if you got that thing put together yet?








< Message edited by CrashPro -- 8/13/2008 1:30:42 PM >

(in reply to Rube Goldberg)
       Post #: 5

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 8/9/2008 8:54:01 PM   
Rube Goldberg


 

Posts: 204
Joined: 6/5/2006
From: Whale Tail, RI, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, I have pretty much finished the build. I'm going to try it with electric power first as the firewall in the rear of the plane is built to accomodate an X mount of a brushless motor. The firewall was already glued in place. Interesting enough, there are a few plywood pieces the also fit in the fuselage that are not depicted in either the hardware of the advertisement or the instruction manual. One is a semicircle piece that spans the width of the fuselage a few inches forward of the firewall, another semicircle piece that fits against the back of the firewall (forward when viewed in the plane) and a couple hardwood rails that fit along the inside of the fuselage between the two ply pieces. What it appears to be is an option for a large ducted fan.
I'm going to use a Scorpion 3020-12 for power, and here is another "rub" if you will on that:

I can tell you that using an 11" prop more than likely the prop is going to hit the ground when you rotate on takeoff. This particular motor should do well with a 9 or 10 inch prop running on 4 cell lipos. For 3 cell lipos it's going to have use a 12 or 13 inch prop to acheive similar results.
It comes down to either running the small prop with 4 cells or making new landing gear wires that are much taller and even using larger wheels to go with the larger diameter prop on 3 cells.

Jury is still out until I fly it. If it only manages less than 5 minutes flight time on 4S 3000mah lipos then I'm probably going to wind up crafting a new firewall that fits a bit forward of the one that was factory installed and use a glow engine. I think a Super Tigre G34 would be just the ticket. The OS Wankel would fit nicely as it is, the ST extends quite a ways beyond the rear of the fuselage on the existing firewall.

The model is really nice. The fuselage is really high quality and the canopy attachment is well thought out. Everything fit together well. Other than that, I'd say the jury is still out on the overall model.

Rube

(in reply to CrashPro)
       Post #: 6

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 8/14/2008 5:21:21 PM   
Rube Goldberg


 

Posts: 204
Joined: 6/5/2006
From: Whale Tail, RI, USA
Status: offline 		For those following this thread, the Vortex 32 is ready to fly. Here is my setup:

4~HS-81 servos in the booms for the elevator and rudders. With maximum throw on the servo arms/horns of the rudders they don't appear to deflect very far. I'm not sure they're really going to be effective. Might have to go to a 3D style servo arm to get effective throw. The cut-outs in the booms were pretty much an exact fit for these servos, although as the servos were just bit too deep up high in the vertical fins for the elevators and would have protruded through to the outside of the fins, I used a piece of 1/8" X 1/4" spruce atop the servo mounting plates/below the servo mounting lugs to effectively block up the servos. The fins are thick enough down low where the rudder servos fit so those were fine.

2~Futaba 3004 servos in the wing for the ailerons. Again, nearly an exact fit.

1~Futaba 3003 for the nose gear. Needed a bit of weight in the nose so this was a logical fit.

Futaba FP-R127DF 8 channel receiver. Forego the servo Y harness and plug one aileron into channel 1 and the other on 6. Employed flaperons just in case.
A note about servo extensions and Y harnesses: You'll need 4 of the 24" inch extensions for the servos in the rear of the booms. That will make them just long enough to go through the wing and into the fuselage. The Aileron servo leads are long enough to just make it into the fuselage. Used a pair of 6" leads on them to get them forward to the receiver. For the Y harnesses: You'll need one of the "servo reversing-adjustable synchronizable" Y harnesses for the elevator servos, unless you put the linkage on the upper arm on one servo and the lower arm on the other. You're going to need 2 standard Y harnesses for the rudder, one to Y the 2 rudders together and then a Y into that Y to include the nose gear servo.

Power is a Scorpion 30-12T brushless motor with a Scorpion 70 Amp ESC. Should be able to turn a 9 or 10" prop for sufficient power with the pair of Zippy 2S 3000 lipo packs wired in series. BEC disabled and going with a Futaba square receiver battery to run the radio. With 3 standard size servos and 4 mini servos I don't want to rely on the BEC.

Ready to fly weight came in at a whopping 81 ounces. That includes 68 ounces of aircraft + 13 ounces of lipo batteries. About 7 ounces overweight of advertised spec.

Most disappointing part of the model: The plastic rear cover over the top of the fuselage. It is made oversized with a molded line for where to cut it to fit. To be safe, I cut it just a bit outside the lines and then used a sanding block to true it up to fit the fuselage. Sanding the edges caused the paint to start flaking off.....so some parts of it are now clear If all goes well I'll just repaint it with some enamel.

Will add some photos before it flies and report back on flight!

Rube

< Message edited by Rube Goldberg -- 8/14/2008 5:35:52 PM >

(in reply to Rube Goldberg)
       Post #: 7

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 8/15/2008 4:05:10 AM   
Rube Goldberg


 

Posts: 204
Joined: 6/5/2006
From: Whale Tail, RI, USA
Status: offline 		Well, GOOD news and BAD news:

The GOOD: Maiden flight of the Vortex 32 this afternoon. Used about 150' of paved runway and adding just a touch of up elevator she zoomed off like a rocket ship at about a 30-40 degree angle to about 100' AGL where I backed out of it to about 70% power. IF I ever had a plane "fly off the drawing board" this one is it. Only trim needed was 1 click of up elevator!
Flew around at about 50% power and she flies like shes on rails-just like a pattern plane with NO bad tendencies anywhere. I was STOKED! Set my timer for 4 minutes, but landed early, probably about a 3 minute flight. I'm charging the Zippys' as I type, the first one needed about 700mah to get back to 8.45 volts; the batteries measured 8.20 pre-flight. So I think with some throttle management I should get 7 or 8 minute flight times with these 3000mah packs. Landing was a non event. Brought her in a bit on the hot side and just floated down the runway no power before flairing to a pretty good landing. Suggested throws were not too much and from the limited flight I can say that the published CG is good.

The BAD: If you don't order one of these from Nitroplanes pretty darn quick you're gonna miss the boat on a really fine model! Two thumbs up for the Fly-Model Factory and Nitroplanes!

Ok, as promised....some photos. Enjoy! Couple of them with my E-Flite Taylorcraft.

Rube

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< Message edited by Rube Goldberg -- 8/15/2008 4:12:14 AM >

(in reply to Rube Goldberg)
       Post #: 8

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 8/15/2008 12:53:51 PM   
CrashPro



Posts: 666
Joined: 7/10/2003
From: Indio, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Hey Rube

Congratulations on the maiden flight....
Are you still going to convert to glow?.....if so....will you take a few pictures along the way?

Also,...how hard would it be to fit retracts on this model?

Thanks



(in reply to Rube Goldberg)
       Post #: 9

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 8/17/2008 7:08:08 PM   
Rube Goldberg


 

Posts: 204
Joined: 6/5/2006
From: Whale Tail, RI, USA
Status: offline 		CrashPro,

I don't think it would be too difficult to add retracts to this model, and the glow powered conversion is in the planning stages at this point.

Flight #2 was yesterday afternoon. This time I set my timer for 5 minutes and had a spotter watch the clock. Made some high speed passes and flew around at about 50% power with plenty of speed, probably averaged 70% power for the duration of the flight. Landed fine at about 4:30 on the clock, taxied back and shut her down. Charging the 3000mah cells on the Watts-Up meter revealed that I had used right at about 1200mah/battery, so I think with throttle management 10 minute flight times on a pair of 7.4V 3000mah LiPos wired in series to make 14.8V should be capable with this ESC/motor/prop combo. At an ambient temperature of about 88F the ESC was quite warm/borderline hot, the motor was very warm to the touch and the batteries weren't even warm. Plan on flying again this afternoon.

If you can fly an Ultrastik, you can fly this model. It is just that stable and the landings are actually pretty slow. I think that has a lot to do with the thick wing. Here is the link to the Scorpion motor specs that I'm using. The first two flights have been with an APC 10X5E prop, there are a couple of other props that should give better performance-but since the motor is new I didn't want to load it too hard just yet .


http://innov8tivedesigns.com/Scorpion/Scorpion%203020-12%20Specs.htm


Rube

< Message edited by Rube Goldberg -- 8/17/2008 7:29:28 PM >

(in reply to CrashPro)
       Post #: 10

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 8/17/2008 7:31:38 PM   
opjose



Posts: 5473
Joined: 11/26/2005
From: Poolesville, MD, USA
Status: offline 		How do you like those "Zippy's"?

I purchased the Rhino versions and find them to be excellent. I'm flying the Bobcat .25 with the 4S1P 14.8v 3700mAh pack, using an 873KV motor and a 8x6 prop.
The little "jet" screams this way... flight times around 10+ minutes @ 650+ watts power 45-50Amps.

I'm also using the Nitro Planes Monster Power .25 motor and the same Zippies on a Diamante, but with a bigger prop giving me 700 watts 58Amps.

The Zippies/Rhinos don't even get WARM!

The Monster Power .25 is excellent, it's only drawback is that it is about 1.5oz heavier than competitor's motors, but hey, for the price, no problem!

No vibration issues, the motor checks out to be very smooth.

I guess after your experience I'll have to get a Vortex too, as I have the right packs for it.


< Message edited by opjose -- 8/17/2008 7:32:31 PM >

_____________________________

-
Build em'', fly em'', crash em'' and build more.

(in reply to Rube Goldberg)
       Post #: 11

RE: Latest jet-Vortex 32? - 8/21/2008 6:48:54 PM   
Rube Goldberg


 

Posts: 204
Joined: 6/5/2006
From: Whale Tail, RI, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CrashPro

Hey Rube

Congratulations on the maiden flight....