Saito 82 timing?  
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Saito 82 timing? - 7/24/2008 1:40:55 PM   
rclement



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My Saito 82 has been running great until yesterday. Just when I added throttle to take off my engine sort of popped and shut off. I took the plane back to the bench to restart it and it wouldn't start up. It sounds like the timing has changed somehow because it sounds like it's blowing air through the carb when I put the starter on the prop nut to fire it up. ? Several guys came over to look at it and add suggestions and what we came up with is that it definately sounds like the timing has changed. Can that happen? How do I ge the timing lined up right again?
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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/24/2008 3:29:29 PM   
pe reivers



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you have to take the engine drive gear housing apart. From your report, It looks like a missing (broken) gear tooth on either the camshaft, or the crankshaft. Replace the damaged parts (or both), and set both valves rocking an equal amount with the piston at top dead center. (if matchup gear tooth marks are missing)

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/24/2008 3:38:49 PM   
Peter Frey


 

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Valve spring broken?

regards

Peter

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/24/2008 3:43:37 PM   
togatoga


 

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I think you've got a valve seizure or damage. I would open the rocker cover and have a look and see if the valves are moving OK. Next, check if the tappet gaps are fine.If they are, then next open the cylinder head and have a look at the valves and the piston/liner. An seized lifter , broken spring or bearing breakup could cause catastrophic damage.
The timing on this OHV engine does not run unless the gears have disintegrated or massively worn which is highly unlikely.

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/24/2008 5:08:52 PM   
rclement



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I didn't get a chance to mention earlier that I took the valve covers off at the field and the lifters and rods looked fine. I also took the cam cover and took out the cam and it looked fine but I didn't rotate the cam or shaft at all to inspect the lower sides of it because I wanted to just have a quick look and didn't want to get the gear timing off. I haven't had a chance to take the engine apart any further. Can these engines jump timing?

< Message edited by rclement -- 7/24/2008 5:10:00 PM >

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/24/2008 5:16:52 PM   
Deadeye



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quote:

ORIGINAL: rclement
Can these engines jump timing?


Not without having serious problems like broken teeth.

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/24/2008 8:07:24 PM   
donkey doctor



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Hello; A fellow flyer had the same problem with his brand new Saito 150 in his, also brand new rascal 110. He took that engine off and was prepared to send it back to Horizon hobby when I asked if I could have a little look into his carb. I found a string of snot sitting over the spray bar on the uphill side. I wiped that away and asked him to give it another try before he sent it off. It started right away and ran perfectly, no more symptoms. It pays to check the fundamentals before you go to extreme measures.

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/24/2008 9:07:04 PM   
rclement



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I'll look at it some more tonight. I could only do so much with it at the field. I didn't want to take it too far apart and loose screws or something. I'm still wondering though that if I take it all apart to inspect stuff, how do I line up the timing? I haven't seen anything written on it.

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/24/2008 11:00:42 PM   
pe reivers



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see post #2

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/25/2008 12:31:51 AM   
Campgems


 

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There are no timing marks on a saito that you can see. You set the piston to tdc. You have had the cam housing off, so that means the push rods and tubes are off. Push out the intake lifter. use a push rod and insert in into the opeing for the intake lifter and rotate the cam until it drops in the oil hole. This will lock the cam at the TDC setting, It feels loose, but you will not be able to skip a tooth off if the crank is true TDC. I remove the glow plug and the use something like a bambo skewer for Kabobs and insert it in to feel the top of the piston you will be able to see the TDC by the way skewer moves. Once you have found TDC, use a sharpie and mark across the thrust hub and the crank. Now, it just a matter of setting the cam housing back down and screwing it in place. I would use this chance to inspect the cam and crank shaft gears, but I seriously doubt you have any problems there. You would feel them hand cranking over the engine. Just make sure you get the gasket back on. A fresh one would be best, but an unbroken one is OK. It's not so much the seal you are woring about, but the spacing of the gears. With out a gasket, you will not have enough wink in the gears and their life,and the rest of the engines will be greatly reduced.

When you tighten down the cam housing, just snug one, the the opsoite corner, the next on the side, and then it's opsoite corner. It's like tightening down a head, if you tighten one screw all the way down while the others are loose, you you end up with a warped head. Ease into the tighening and follow the crisscross patern. Double check the timing before tightening dow, find the oil hole with the push rod and then see if your timing mark is lined up OK.

While you have the rocker covers off check for a broken spring, and after you get the push rods back in place, hand crank the engine over watching the rockers and make sure that they move smoothly and that there is not a valve hanging.

One last thing just came to mind, the cam drive gear on my Saito 45 slips on the crank and engages a pin through the crank. I guess it is possible that you sheared a pin, but not likely. If the engine gives you trouble after you get it back to gether, IE it looks like the timing has changed, then I would have a lood a the gear. THe 82 may have a different arangement though.

Don

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/25/2008 1:19:11 PM   
rclement



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Campgems

There are no timing marks on a saito that you can see. You set the piston to tdc. You have had the cam housing off, so that means the push rods and tubes are off. Push out the intake lifter. use a push rod and insert in into the opeing for the intake lifter and rotate the cam until it drops in the oil hole. This will lock the cam at the TDC setting, It feels loose, but you will not be able to skip a tooth off if the crank is true TDC. I remove the glow plug and the use something like a bambo skewer for Kabobs and insert it in to feel the top of the piston you will be able to see the TDC by the way skewer moves. Once you have found TDC, use a sharpie and mark across the thrust hub and the crank. Now, it just a matter of setting the cam housing back down and screwing it in place. I would use this chance to inspect the cam and crank shaft gears, but I seriously doubt you have any problems there. You would feel them hand cranking over the engine. Just make sure you get the gasket back on. A fresh one would be best, but an unbroken one is OK. It's not so much the seal you are woring about, but the spacing of the gears. With out a gasket, you will not have enough wink in the gears and their life,and the rest of the engines will be greatly reduced.

When you tighten down the cam housing, just snug one, the the opsoite corner, the next on the side, and then it's opsoite corner. It's like tightening down a head, if you tighten one screw all the way down while the others are loose, you you end up with a warped head. Ease into the tighening and follow the crisscross patern. Double check the timing before tightening dow, find the oil hole with the push rod and then see if your timing mark is lined up OK.

While you have the rocker covers off check for a broken spring, and after you get the push rods back in place, hand crank the engine over watching the rockers and make sure that they move smoothly and that there is not a valve hanging.

One last thing just came to mind, the cam drive gear on my Saito 45 slips on the crank and engages a pin through the crank. I guess it is possible that you sheared a pin, but not likely. If the engine gives you trouble after you get it back to gether, IE it looks like the timing has changed, then I would have a lood a the gear. THe 82 may have a different arangement though.

Don

I was able to take the timing gear cover last night and inspect the gears. I didn't see any damage at all. The valve springs looked good too so I'm not exactly sure what caused the timing problem but I tried to put it back together but didn't understand part of what you were saying (above). My 82 has a dimple on the timing gear but I didn't know how to clock that in relation to the piston. I put it so that the dimple was down as the piston was at TDC and assembled the rest of the engine. Well with that set up I don't have any compression so it's definately out of time. It must be clocked wrong.

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/25/2008 2:25:44 PM   
togatoga


 

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What you did is correct.At TDC, the dimple should be at 6 O'clock. There are 2 ways of fixing the timing gear back on. Ist method is probably what the manufacturer does and that is with the lifter removed on right camshaft looking from the front, insert a 1.5mm wire thru to a oil hole located on the camgear.This will result in the dimple being in the correct 6 o'clock position and makes assembly easy. The second method is to use a knife blade to lock the gear teeth with the dimple at 6 o"clock. Both methods work fine.
I've noticed for my saitos that when they lose compression and everything looks OK, I would remove the valves especially the exhaust valve, clean them out, reseat them and voila, the compression returns like a charm- done them to my 300tl, 82 and recently to my 65. I reckon its the carbon buildup that occasionally happens.

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/25/2008 5:12:30 PM   
rclement



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quote:

ORIGINAL: togatoga

What you did is correct.At TDC, the dimple should be at 6 O'clock. There are 2 ways of fixing the timing gear back on. Ist method is probably what the manufacturer does and that is with the lifter removed on right camshaft looking from the front, insert a 1.5mm wire thru to a oil hole located on the camgear.This will result in the dimple being in the correct 6 o'clock position and makes assembly easy. The second method is to use a knife blade to lock the gear teeth with the dimple at 6 o"clock. Both methods work fine.
I've noticed for my saitos that when they lose compression and everything looks OK, I would remove the valves especially the exhaust valve, clean them out, reseat them and voila, the compression returns like a charm- done them to my 300tl, 82 and recently to my 65. I reckon its the carbon buildup that occasionally happens.

Thanks for the info, I re-read what Campgens had written and then figured it out. Funny how you can read over something and miss stuff and then re-read it and catch on to what's said. Anyway, my mistake, I just have to wait to get home from work and put it together.
I like the idea about the valves. I'm wondering if that's it. I'll try that tonight.

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RE: Saito 82 timing? - 7/25/2008 10:28:49 PM   
blw



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W8YE uses an Exacto knife blade sometimes to hold a gear tooth in place while setting the timing.

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