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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/11/2002 5:59 PM   
Jazzy



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From: Erie, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Hello Mec,

Great work so far!!
I can only imagine the difficulties you are having. Kind of like swimming in unknown waters-you never know what is going to happen. For wandering in unknown territory I think you are doing a great job of overcoming obstacles.

After thinking about it, the exhaust gases may be putting down force on the aft end of the CG. (Don't the gases exit the fuse up, back, and away from the wing and fuse?) At slower speeds this will cause the nose-high attitude you've described. Similar to using flaps as spoilers on an aerobatic plane. At faster speeds the effects may be somewhat less but still there. (Not entirely sure...) (Just a thought)

If the tail-dropping you describe is due to the forces of the exhaust I fear alterations may need to be made.

As you mentioned, finding the correct blade pitch may be difficult. I would imagine that giving too much pitch at too low an air speed will cause cavitation (from the Latin word cavitas). I would think that starting off with minimal pitch and slowly increasing pitch as the plane accelerates is what you're shooting for. If, say during a turn, the plane slows, less pitch will be needed to pull the plane through the turn. As it speeds up more pitch would be necessary to regain a good flight speed.
Maybe you've already mentioned these things. I'm just typing what I see happening in my mind's eye.
I wonder how much the RPMs vary on our petrol/methonal powered two and four stroke engines with fixed pitch prop s...?

Hang in there and keep up the excellent work! We are with you and try to help with your troubles.

Jeff

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/11/2002 6:36 PM   
Raghfrost


 

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Status: offline 		wow mike u just keep the videos coming

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/11/2002 9:06 PM   
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Status: offline 		Who's Mike?

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/11/2002 9:12 PM   
Raghfrost


 

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/12/2002 12:54 AM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		hi jazzy and all other friends,

only further test flights will show weather the down thrust of the exhaust gases has to be directed in an other, better way. due to the way the turbine managment tries to maintain constant rpm, the turbine seems to "breathe" in a similar way. what i want to say, is that exhaust "pumps" can be noticed maybe responsible for the "up" an "down" during flight. putting the plane on a scale and read the figures could verify these observation (but we havent done this yet).
the last days we had rain and very stormy weather. today was the first day, we went to the flying field and did some flights with less exspensiv planes. on our homefield it would be too dangerous to test fly this plane for the first test flights (there are way too many trees).

finding the correct blade pitch is no problem in theory. the challenge is for the pilot to do right thing at the right moment (pilot ernst has 20 years flight experience, but now he has to do something very unusual, unexpected, for example move the stick back when the plane goes vertical).

for the moment there are videos ([url]www.jets.at[/url]) from the start sequenz, one fly by, and taxiing reverse.
as soon as we have more videos, i will post.

there are good news:
we have a second fighter in the fight against turbine powered constant speed pitch adjustable prop s. as i have been told a team of three modellers, jakadofsky (turbine manufacturer), didi grosz and franz höllinger are ready for first flight with their Warhawk B 40 on friday.
i hope that the collaboration will accelerate our progress on this project.


mec

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/12/2002 2:15 AM   
robert


 

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Status: offline 		Well Mike(?).
What do you all mean about the turbine, and CoGs, and so on? Is it that the exhaust is pointing slightly up, or down, and that there is thrust coming out of the engine, which forces the nose up/down?
What servos and other radio gear are you using by the way?
You're getting close to it now!!!
Robert.

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/12/2002 3:02 AM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		yes, the exhaust is pointing slightly up and leaves the fuselage two inches in front of the CG.
on the test bench we had a residual Thrust of 2kg with one exhaust pipe.
yes, i cannot exclude that this setup causes problems in level flight.

btw we use two Graupner 4421 servos on rudder, one 4421 for each aileron and elevon and one hitec hs-645bb for pitch adjustment. receiver is a graupner ds 20mc with Graupner MC 24 transmitter. receiver pack duralites.

mec

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/12/2002 3:11 AM   
Forgues Research



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From: Glen Robertson, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by mec
yes, the exhaust is pointing slightly up and leaves the fuselage two inches in front of the CG.
on the test bench we had a residual Thrust of 2kg with one exhaust pipe.
yes, i cannot exclude that this setup causes problems in level flight.

btw we use two Graupner 4421 servos on rudder, one 4421 for each aileron and elevon and one hitec hs-645bb for pitch adjustment. receiver is a graupner ds 20mc with Graupner MC 24 transmitter. receiver pack duralites.

mec [/QUOTE]

If I may add to this, 2 KGs from only one pipe would mean even more from the two of them, and to have them shouting up, don't look any further. I beleive you should try and make the pipes straight out towards the back in a straight line with the trust line.

Just my two cents, but don't give up, that is a super project.

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/12/2002 3:32 AM   
robert


 

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Status: offline 		Four kilos extra in front o the CoG might make a small difference!!!

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/12/2002 3:40 AM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		hi roger,

i agree, my pipe setup is not the best solution for the exhaust problem. i wanted to minimize the residual thrust, therefore i decided to use a y-pipe. although it points slightly up, test runs showed a heat problem on the oracover film of the wings (nearest point to the pipe) discoloring the film like with a hot heating iron, however doing no damage.
its not easy to make the right decision. i would tend to do a further test flight confirming these problems (cause we are not sure weather the symetrical heliblades have caused this bad flying habits).

we had 2 kilos thrust with one pipe (D=80mm). now we use one pipe diverging into two pipes, each with D=70mm. i am sure the y-pipe does not double the thrust. there can not be more than 2 kilos (maybe more exhaust gas velocity, but not thrust). the arcs and radiuses of the y-pipe eliminate a small part of the thrust.

mec

thanks for the input. all your suggestions will be discussed by our group and help finding whats wrong.

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/12/2002 3:47 AM   
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Status: offline 		By being focussed, you find the solutions, and I will keep reading

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/13/2002 4:25 PM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		hi,

yesterday we did two more flights.
weather conditions had been fine. 21°C, 10km/h wind from the west.
our new setup (compared to our last flight) was as follows:
the new blades as can be seen on the pic in my post from 06-07-2002.
2 degrees of more upthrust of the engine.


1st flight:

take off:
no problems, the plane was airborne after 40-50 meters.
flight:
acceleration was good. a steady climb of 20°-30° followed. the plane seemed to fly stable. with-wind pass without anomaly. pilot ernst switched (via transmitter switch) to an additional 4° degrees of pitch. an increase of speed was noticed. the plane was not the fastest one. but it was the first time, that we thought of rolls or loops. again the plane did level flight with a slight amount of nose up, but only in a minimal amount. no comparison to our flights two weeks ago. as speed increased, a modest instability resulting in ups and downs was noticed.
landing:
first try with excellent approach, 10 meters above the ground less pitch and suddenly the plane ballooned. ernst managed to level the plane but it was too high for landing. more pitch, speed increased for the next turn. excellent approach again, ernst compensated the less-pitch ballooning with down elevator and a smooth landing followed.

for second flight we decided to give again 1° more up thrust to compensate the less-pitch ballooning.

2nd flight:
take off:
again without problems.
flight:
not yet the best flight characteristics. but no doubt the plane flies . it flies in a way that we can speek of what we call "fly". you can do turns left or right, fly slow or fast, you can do climbs and descends.
we did a next step:
ernst prepared us trying some inverted flight. rollrate was excellent, the plane rotated, flew inverted and the unexpected happend:
everybody expected a loss of altitude, ernst was ready to give down elevator, but the plane went up and tended to go vertical. ernst did half a roll and leveled for safe stable flight again.
the considerations started: did he do too much down elevator? was it a burst of wind? we couldnt believe what we have seen.
again ernst inverted the plane and did nothing. the plane went vertical and did a half a negativ loop. ernst ended with half a roll and leveled the plane.
after 5min it was time to come in.
landing:
not the smoothest one. evidently not easy to coordinate pitch and elevator in such an unusual way (we do not know, if the balloning effect was minimized by by the increased upthrust).

conclusions:
the change to conventional blades instead of the previously used heliblades was a benefit. it seems that the plane has become more calculable in flight.
the increased upthrust prooved to be an advantage.
the yet unstable (in a minimal way) flight and the strange behavior in inverted flight gives room for a lot of considerations:
a huge amount of hot turbulent air comes out of the pipes, leaving it slightly backwards and up. the airstream of the prop direct this air to the stabs doing no good there.
my plan is to direct this exhaust blast back. i hope that it will not effect the wings anymore and we will see what will happen to the stabs.

i need comments on how the full size planes solve this problem.
the bow (exhaust pipe extension) has vents for cooling the hot gases. does anybody know a source for pics for this issue?


mec

p.s.: forgot to mention, the engine performed flawless again. in the future i will not post any comments to the engine, cause it seems to be common that there are no failures

< Message edited by mec -- Jun 13 2002 12:49PM >

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/16/2002 7:51 PM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		friday 06-14-02 our friends from enns, austria, did their maiden flight with their warhawk b 40.
weather conditions have been good. little wind but, 31° degrees Celsius.

the plane was not finished, it served more as a test stand. the engine same as we use, PJW turbo shaft engine with internal gearbox, flywheel clutch and secondary gear box. a vario three blade hub and shortened heliblades have been mounted.
i did not manage to be at the flying field on time. but i have seen the short video of the start sequenz and take off. the plane took approx 70 meters to lift off. runway was gras and asphalt mixed. the take off was a little bit critical cause of lack of speed. but once in the air the climb was ok. a right turn followed and despite off the wind from behind an increase of altitude was visible. maybe a little too much, because the plane flamed out. the tail wind made a safe landing impossible. a hard landing with a roll over followed breaking one wing. the damage was minor however due to the yet unfinished plane.

searching for the cause of this accident we found that the engine runs 100°C hotter than ours does. this circumstance and the very hot weather caused the flameout. we will do further investigations on the high EGT.
speaking to pilot franz höllinger, he said that the plane felt stable in flight and that there was no strange behaviour noticed as far as it could be noticed in this short flight.

i want to congratulate the team of jakadofsky/höllinger for doing theit first flight. it showed that it will be only a question of a few days till the next start will hopefully show better results. our collaboration will fasten the development of this fascinating prop ulsion.

at the moment i work on improvment of the exhaust system as descibed in a previous post.

mec

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/20/2002 3:51 PM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		alterations on the exhaust pipe are done.
unbelievable that the bigger part of the pipe can be mounted in the engine compartment of the fuselage without destroying it

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/20/2002 4:02 PM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		the test run yesterday showed, that here is a lot of heat lateral the canopy. it deformes the clear canopy, maybe i have to make a CFK one. the fuselage behind the canopy is very hot too. you cannot put your hand on it for a long time.

i hope things change in flight.

the exhaust gases are directed back so they will not influence flight performance anymore.

the test runs had been made yesterday evening. we had excessively hot weather, 31°C.

next test flight is planned for weekend.

mec

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/20/2002 5:18 PM   
robert


 

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Status: offline 		Go on Mec!!!

I am sure that there is a good way to better cooling. Did you think about anything?
A baffle, or a radiator. Its probably too heavy, and hard to engineer though. BVM make heat blankets, that you might eant to look at too.
All the best.
Robert.

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/20/2002 5:22 PM   
Unstable



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Status: offline 		is there a way to get air into the chamber were the exaust pipe is... maybe a small vent coming from the top going out the bottom will cool the pipe in the plane and help cool the exaust a few degrees... I see you have vents going from the front but maybe a bit more airflow would help.

dont know if its even worth it, just a suggestion.

< Message edited by Unstable -- Jun 20 2002 12:37PM >

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/20/2002 7:21 PM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		yes, you both are right.

maybe we will have to do some alterations for better cooling.
inside the chamber where the exhaust pipe is i had bvm heat blankets installed for preventing fire already (btw the prop an/butan bottle is there also ).

at the moment i do not see an easy and fast way for our heat problem. better cooling in the engine and exhaust section demands generally a partially destruction of the fuselage like cutting vents or holes.
at the moment the heat problem is more behind my new exhaust pipe. i would not say that the engine compartment stays cool, but there didnt occur any problems till now. but the new exhaust design heats the outer surface of the rear fuselage.
wrapping the fuselage with heat blankets would be more than i can bear. it would be too ugly .
the only thing i could imagine is to do some vents in the front side of the exhaust pipe knees. the prop airstream could mix cold air to the hot exhaust gases. maybe the simplest way?

how is that on full size planes done?

mec

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/20/2002 8:48 PM   
robert


 

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Status: offline 		Are you aiming for a very scale effect on this plane, or just keeping the plane looking good? If you don't want true scale, then there are loads of options, that can also enhace the looks. One or two holes well placed wouldn't harm the appearence, a radiator might also work, but again weight and complexity is probably too much. Do you have baffles around the engine and exhaust? It looks to me, that you don't have any air leaving the exhaust bay area. That is vital for cooling in my book, and would be seriously needed. That and baffles might help alot.
Just my 2c!
Robert.

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/21/2002 1:19 AM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		no, i am not aiming for a very scale effect. but keeping the plane looking good is a second demand after function.

EGT is (in worst case) up to 850°C. of course perfect cooling would help decreasing exhaust gas temperature. but i think not that much. there is a tremendous mass of (hot) airflow behind the exhaust pipe produced by the turbine. i fear cooling the exhaust bay area will not help much.

at the moment cool air passes the front vents. this air and hot air from around the exhaust pipe is sucked into the turbine. on the other hand hot air can leave the engine cowl between the double walled (where it penetrates the fuselage) exhaust pipes (pic).

nevertheless, it seems time has come to think of an effectiv cooling system.

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/27/2002 1:57 AM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		today we continued with our test flights.
outside temp was comfortable 26°C. we did two flights.

start and take off without any problem, good acceleration and steady climb. 10meters in the air suddenly a slight nose-down occured. again an unstable flight. more speed, or is it more pitch, we do not know exactly, and the planeīs nose goes down. two consecutive rolls without noticeable misbehaviour. but once again inverted flight and the plane goes up into the sky.
speed and power satisfying however.

the worst of all controlling elevator in the landing phase. less pitch to slow down the plane and it balloons. more pitch to avoid stall and the nose goes down. thus happened at the end of our second flight with a very hard landing breaking the main gear and all three blades. but no more damage had been found at first glance.

conclusions for today:

# the directing of the exhaust gases had not brought the benefits we exspected
# for second flight we reduced engine thrust (2° more down thrust) and the up/down misbehaviour worsened
# a complete check of all flying surfaces will have to be done the next days
# heat of the exhaust gases seems to be no problem during flight (at least concerning the stability of the airframe, the wings and stabs. the hot air may distrurb airflow in the rear of the plane however). the little distortionof the canopy i can live with.
# we are thinking of mixing (transmitter) pitch and elevator for landing approach
# if we do not find the solution for our problems, we are speculating with the idea of mounting a conventional two stroke engine for first setup flights of the plane.

i do not like this last idea very much. it would be a lot of work and i hope that the solution for this miracle is near.

pilot ernst said: our plane behaves like a woman. hard to understand.

mec

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/27/2002 1:50 PM   
Raghfrost


 

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Status: offline 		Mr Mec do u mind if i ask how much have u spent so far on this project?

maan it looks expensive

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/27/2002 2:32 PM   
mec



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From: oberndorf, AUSTRIA
Status: offline 		no problem, i do not have any secrets:

honestly, i canīt say exactly how much i spent till now on this project.

the most expensive part is time. i started building the plane in march 2002. till now there was not much time left for regeneration, other planes or family.
the plane is a kit from delro, price 1000 Euro + receiver, servos, accus and all the stuff to finish the model.
engine is a PJW turbo shaft motor (http://www.jets.at/pjw.html) selling for 4000 Euro without external gear (in helping developing the project it is an engine at no cost till now. when the work is done, the plane performs well with best flying characteristics so that is can be given to the public, maybe i have to pay half the price or similar for the engine).
the external gear and adjustable pitch mechanismn including hub and blades are selfmade. too, a lot of time consuming work and the cost of material (a few hundred Euro). same with exhaust pipe, work and material.
till now we broke three main gear and one wing tube and one spinner (250 Euro).

mec

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/27/2002 5:11 PM   
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Status: offline 		MEC,

Not knowing anything about engineering, would it help if your stab was raised? I know this might hurt the aerobatic capability of the plane. Also, what if you modified the fuse rear to allow for rear exhaust?

Mark M.

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turbo prop aerobatic plane (it flies!!!!!) - 6/27/2002 5:29 PM   
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From: Glen Robertson, ON, CANADA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by mec
no problem, i do not have any secrets:

honestly, i canīt say exactly how much i spent till now on this project.

the most expensive part is time. i started building the plane in march 2002. till now there was not much time left for regeneration, other planes or family.
the plane is a kit from delro, price 1000 Euro + receiver, servos, accus and all the stuff to finish the model.
engine is a PJW turbo shaft motor (http://www.jets.at/pjw.html) selling for 4000 Euro without external gear (in helping developing the project it is an engine at no cost till now. when the work is done, the plane performs well with best flying characteristics so that is can be given to the public, maybe i have to pay half the price or similar for the engine).
the external gear and adjustable pitch mechanismn including hub and blades are selfmade. too, a lot of time consuming work and the cost of material (a few hundred Euro). same with exhaust pipe, work and material.
till now we broke three main gear and one wing tube and one spinner (250 Euro).

mec [/QUOTE]


Mec,
I know this might be a dumb question, but when I looked at the Turbine web site, I would like to know why there is a helicopter type clutch mounted on the turbines....
Thanks

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