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Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 4:04 AM   
bowlman


 

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Status: online 		Has anyone tried building a M10 Duckbill out of a M4 Sherman tank hull .

thanks
jimmy

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 4:44 AM   
ksoc



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Status: offline 		Max Moore in our club did this conversion based on the Tamiya HVSS

Tiff Williams went all out, building his own VVSS suspension and track

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< Message edited by ksoc -- 8/15/2008 4:45 AM >

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 4:46 AM   
swathdiver



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Status: offline 		I think Tiff Williams already has.

Funny they call it a Duckbill. The M10 was known as the Wolverine. Duckbill referred to the Extended End Connectors, EECs, used to lessen ground pressure on the tracks.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 4:54 AM   
kennywsp


 

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 4:54 AM   
bowlman


 

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Status: online 		Nice one Tiff Williams did looks just like the model the M4 Sherman are for sale at a low price at this time .

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 4:55 AM   
Panther F



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quote:

ORIGINAL: swathdiver

I think Tiff Williams already has.

Funny they call it a Duckbill. The M10 was known as the Wolverine. Duckbill referred to the Extended End Connectors, EECs, used to lessen ground pressure on the tracks.


I thought it was because of the shape of the turrets counter-weight extension. The picture of that Academy kit doesn't have the end connectors.

http://www.cybermodeler.com/hobby/kits/aca/kit_aca_m10duck.shtml

The 'duckbill' version of the M10 was the configuration put into production later in the M10's development. The 'duckbill' was actually a more effective turret counter-weight to offset the weight of the M7 76mm main gun. The extended 'duckbill' also provided a better 50 cal machine gun mount. The M10 would phase out in favor of the highly mobile M18 (with an improved 76mm gun) and the M36 (with its 90mm Panther-plinking gun).

< Message edited by Panther F -- 8/15/2008 4:58 AM >

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 5:17 AM   
ksoc



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Status: offline 		Check this DAK page out..... scroll about half way down and look for "Tiff"


http://web.mac.com/ethandunsford/DAK2/R-C_gallery.html

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 5:31 AM   
swathdiver



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Status: offline 		Ohh, I see now. Learn something new everyday! As much as I've read about the TDs, never heard of that one! Makes perfect sense too. That was the final design and the turret was a little larger too. Thanks!

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 1:28 PM   
pattoncommander



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Status: online 		Wierd that Academy came up with "Duckbill". It had nothing to do with the TD, but rererred to track entensions and the M-10 was never known by that name.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 1:45 PM   
Panther F



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quote:

ORIGINAL: pattoncommander

Wierd that Academy came up with "Duckbill". It had nothing to do with the TD, but rererred to track entensions and the M-10 was never known by that name.


http://www.tarrif.net/cgi/production/all_vehicles_adv.php?op=getvehicles&pic_op=artwork&vehiclesX=174

http://afvdb.50megs.com/usa/3ingmcm10.html

No one said it was the appropriate designation for the vehicle Bill, it just referred to the newly shaped turret on the later M10's and Academy picked it up and ran with it. You'll find a lot of model companies did make this mistake.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 2:27 PM   
pattoncommander



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Status: online 		Panther, that counterweight was put on the M-10 turret when they realized the weight offset on the 3 inch gun was not enough on the 1943 improved design. On a level surface it was OK, but when the TD was sitting on an incline, traversing the turret uphill was very difficult, in spite of the oversize traverse handwheel. That last modification counterweight was added in mid 1943 after the soldier that designed the dual trangular add-ons was presented the Legion of Merrit for his earlier design. It's really strange, that in my 4 years of research into TD units that were here at Ft Jackson 41-45 and speaking with vets from 4 units that had them, the name "Duckbill" was an relatively unknown term. I have heard the term used, but never from TD vets, and I wonder who came up with that name.
The M-10 Wolverine carried a 3 inch gun, (75.777mm) M-7, and the M-18 was armed with a newly developed 76mm which was actually 76.2mm. The new 76mm was 300 lbs lighter but had the same ballistics and penetration of the M-10's 3 inch gun, but the M-18s longer gun did give it an edge on AP. Both the M-10 and M-18 ammunition used the same projectiile but with a different shell casing. The M-18's ammo was 2-5 lbs lighter and a few inches shorter than the 3 inch gun, which improved speed of loading. The M-18 also had power traverse whereas the M-10 was strictly manual.


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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/15/2008 3:19 PM   
Panther F



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quote:

ORIGINAL: pattoncommander

Panther, that counterweight was put on the M-10 turret when they realized the weight offset on the 3 inch gun was not enough on the 1943 improved design. On a level surface it was OK, but when the TD was sitting on an incline, traversing the turret uphill was very difficult, in spite of the oversize traverse handwheel. That last modification counterweight was added in mid 1943 after the soldier that designed the dual trangular add-ons was presented the Legion of Merrit for his earlier design. It's really strange, that in my 4 years of research into TD units that were here at Ft Jackson 41-45 and speaking with vets from 4 units that had them, the name "Duckbill" was an relatively unknown term. I have heard the term used, but never from TD vets, and I wonder who came up with that name.
The M-10 Wolverine carried a 3 inch gun, (75.777mm) M-7, and the M-18 was armed with a newly developed 76mm which was actually 76.2mm. The new 76mm was 300 lbs lighter but had the same ballistics and penetration of the M-10's 3 inch gun, but the M-18s longer gun did give it an edge on AP. Both the M-10 and M-18 ammunition used the same projectiile but with a different shell casing. The M-18's ammo was 2-5 lbs lighter and a few inches shorter than the 3 inch gun, which improved speed of loading. The M-18 also had power traverse whereas the M-10 was strictly manual.




Yeah, yeah ... I know. I've read the same books you have.

Don't shoot the messenger, if you want to argue with someone about it call and talk to Academy for using the term so liberally. I just happened to know what they were referring to. Geesh.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/17/2008 2:16 AM   
Panther G


 

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Status: offline 		i think the M-10 would have made one mean tank if they actually put a roof on the turret. Does anyone know why they didn't. Was it due too the gun breech size or something else. It is almost like a allied panther with the sloped side armour and hull. I like it.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/17/2008 2:35 AM   
Panther F



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Status: offline 		The M36B2 had a roof. It used the M10 hull with a different turret along with the 90mm gun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:M36-GMC-Danbury.0004zx4t.jpg

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/17/2008 3:24 AM   
bowlman


 

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Status: online 		You mean like this .

the pic is not so good its a small one had to get close .

thanks
jimmy

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/17/2008 6:55 AM   
swathdiver



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Status: offline 		Local shops put roofs on them when they went into towns. For all the hoopla about how deadly that was, it wasn't done sooner or more often. The M10s and early M36s also had mounts on them to add additional armor plate, never seen it done. This tells me the tanks fought just fine as they were intended to.

Leaving the roof off gave them superior situational awareness compared to a buttoned up tank whose crew is viewing the battlefield through a periscope.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/17/2008 11:45 AM   
Panther F



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Status: offline 		Good explanation James! I see you've been doing 4 years of research too. (Jest skiddin')

The program on the Military Channel called "Tank Overhaul" about the M18 Hellcat painted a pretty clear picture about what it's like (from a real tank destroyer vet) during combat in an open top turret in WWII. How that "superior situational awareness" came into play but also how darn cold it was during the winter in the tank while the engine was running.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/17/2008 5:40 PM   
bowlman


 

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Status: online 		that's because the engine was air cooled wright continental r-975 motor and had no need for a radiator so no heating system not even electric heater in the m18 hellcat tank destroyer.

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jimmy

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/17/2008 6:58 PM   
Panther F



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Status: offline 		I know that, but the fan drew outside air into the engine compartment from "everywhere" (open hatches and vents) causing the inside of the tank to be even colder, which makes since.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/17/2008 7:23 PM   
pattoncommander



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Status: online 		The M-36 design was great and looked neat and if it had anything other max one inch of armor it may have done better. Problem is that the entire TD doctrine was flawed from the onset, being based on early-mid 1930's tactics which the Wehrmacht changed prior to entering poland. None of the TDs, tracked or wheeled, had more than an inch of armor or any armored top to allow faster speed and better maneuverability and to allow the crew to bail out faster if/when hit.

The one TD that worked better was the M-36B1 which was merely the M-36 turret on the M-4A3 chassis. That gave it at least 1 cal 30 MG and some better armor. The ROK Army had the M-36B2s in Korea and used them very well, but they still had the problem not being able to take hits from anything larger than a heavy MG or shrapnel. We lost a lot of brave TD men due to commanders regarding the "tank looking thing" as a tank and put them into situations they were not designed to handle. Using them as infantry support got a lot killed due to the absense of anti personnel weapons. "Ferdinand at Kursk scenario".

Some measures were taken in Germany, mainly by M-36 crews and their units, to make ad hoc top armor, but these were simply field retrofits and no two were the same. German units learning that they were fighting TDs simply used artillery with VT fuses to eliminate them. If the M-36 would have been designed with at least 2 1/2 inches of armor and maybe 3 inches in front with a couple MGs, it would have been a real butt kicker. Too bad the designers didn't check battle loss statistics and think up a logical upgrade design.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/17/2008 7:39 PM   
pattoncommander



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Status: online 		Only crew heaters in tanks were very late WW II into Korea. (E8 Sherman, M-26A1, M-46) They were gasoline driven and very prone to explosions due to the glass rod actuator. All ours (Korea and Ft Knox ) were disconnected so the engine grilles and mufflers were the only source of (freindly) heat. Air cleaners and intakes were inside at the rear of the fighting compartment in most TDs, and that's where the problem comes in with air being dragged through the turret. Nice in summer, but in winter Even the M-46-47 and 48s had the air cleaners in the rear of the turret, so the air whistled through there also....closing the hatches didn't help. The one big advantage was your engine which always provided heat the poor infantry guys didn't have. But you had to be in a safe area and stand outside on top or near the exhaust to use it.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/17/2008 11:34 PM   
pattoncommander



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The M-10, as with the M-18 and M-36 were not tanks. They were not designed or intended to be used as tanks, had virtually no armor and the open top was to provide better all around observation as well as faster escape when hit. Tank Detroyers were Patton's answer to German tanks and he got the choice of better guns. Those guns could have been used in up-gunning of Shermans or improved tank design and armament. The M-10 had the 3 inch gun, which was supposed to be a hard hitter but didn't live up to expectations. The open top had nothing to do with breech or recoil assembly space, just observation & fast exit. The M-18 had the better gun combined with amazing speed and maneuverability, but the most improvement came with the M-36 which had the exact same gun as the Pershing. The TD doctrine of 1941 dictated that TD units would be in a holding area and rush to where enemy tanks were attacking or engage in ambush and hit and run tactics, hence the sacraficing armor for speed. Panther mentioned the great design of the M-36 and he's right on, but a couple inches of armor and a machine gun would have been a big help. Had we developed a tank with those angled designs, we would have done so much better. Look what the T-34 did.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/18/2008 12:07 AM   
Panther F



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Status: offline 		Yeah, the M18 had the same gun as the Sherman had there patt, but the ammo was it's secret hard punch. If you can find (or make) the M36 turret it could always be mounted on the M4A3 hull making the M36B1 tank destroyer which they did turn out 187 of them.

That will be my final Sherman variant I plan to build.

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/18/2008 5:22 AM   
pattoncommander



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Status: online 		Yeah, just too bad they couldn't get more B1's out. It was an attempt to get more 90mms out there and with the Sherman chassis, they had at least a turret ring that matched with a bit more armor, but they lost the speed of the lighter M-10 chassis. . The M-18's 76 also introduced the AP-C ammo, with the tungsten carbide tip. It worked so well, they had some 90mm rounds AP-C until they developed the HVAP with a lot more punch. Have to agree with ya, that the M-36 was a nice design optically, but I'd rather have some armor plate if I'm going to tackle anything like a Tiger or Panther. Speed is nice (loved my M-41) but can't outrun an 88

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RE: Has anyone tried building this out of a Sherman - 8/18/2008 5:25 PM   
FFR2608



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Status: offline 		That is my next planned scratch project. Who knows when it will begin. I plan on having it swap between my Firefly upper hull. ( yes, I saved the paint mix to match in later) I will be doing the Achilles version with my favorite 17PDR gun. The black and white photo is showing a roof.

DH


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