RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (Full Version)

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bearcatf8 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/2/2008 1:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: David Eichstedt


quote:

ORIGINAL: bearcatf8

Dave; you say the motor is a in runner 400. Is this a E-Flight motor painted black ? I have a T-28 and it says that it is a 480 ,but is black.What is the Kv of this motor? I know E-Flight list a 4200 Kv motor ,would this make the performance better ? I'm in line to get a F-16 and want it to have good vertical as well as good take off ooompf ! Has sanyone done any mods to the power system ?


The ParkZone T-28 motor is a different motor than the E-flite Park 480, as you have discovered. The F-16 motor is not a Park 400 inrunner, but it's very, very similar. Much more similar to the Park 400 than the T-28 motor is to the Park 480. Regarding power system upgrades, I'm sorry but we don't have any recommendations at this time. Perhaps in the near future [;)]

David

DAve ,you think you could get a list of motors /fan that we could bolt into the fuselage of the F-16 ? Even a drawing that shows the blot patern or something like that !



bearcatf8 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/2/2008 10:42 PM)

Never mind ; all did not go well with the first flight. First it was difficult to get a rolling start off grass , I think I had the CG in the wrong place because it seemed very nose heavy and was diving as soon as the stick pressure was relaxed. Did not want to turn very well ,as soon as it went into a bank ,it would tend to roll over too far and the nose would drop. As i banked every so slightly around the field I got into the sun and was blinded and lost sight of it. Rolled over onto it's back and went straight in . One . thing it seemed slow and just barely flying ,on the verge of a stall. anything less than full throttle ,drop the nose and look out.And I could see some fan tip rub on the shroud . I think the elevators were blanked out by the wing ? No damage to radio or battery ,but the fuselage from the wing fwd is gone. Im going to double check where i had the CG and ....well im out of the ducted fan buisness for now >



wtmcgehee -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/2/2008 11:21 PM)

I didn't have any controll issues with mine but you are right that you have to keep full throttle on all the time just to maintain flight. The book said not to keep it full trottle but you can't gain any altitude or stay level unless it was.



bearcatf8 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 12:19 AM)

CG was right on 2 3/16 I remember where it was. after looking at the wing again, It could have been futher back from what I saw and recall now ,but you have to be conserned about being tail haevy. The Elevators were set zero straight with the stab . It nosed down a little after the hand launch ,but I let it build some speed and then climbed out shallow and thats when I knoticed it didn't want to turn very well. And it seemed to not keep a steady speed ,it was slowing down ,thats when it got in the sun ,turned toward me which I didn't see ,then rolled over on to it's back and spin in . well I'm done with it I'll try something else . Maybe a F-86 Hobby Lobby ?



bearcatf8 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 12:20 AM)

sorry duplicate Squawk !



29904 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 1:12 AM)

Thanks for your suggestions however I use a balancing charger and that is not the source of my problem. I did try to change the timing of the E-flite 30 Pro speed controller but an old fellow like me I soon got lost in all the beeps so gave up. Eflite needs to get a simpler way to make changes to their speed controllers. I replaced the E-flite with a Turnagy 40 amp and the pulsing issue is now gone and she seemed to have plenty of power. Thankfully the Turnagy has a program card that makes changes so simple that even I can manage to do it right.
E-flite, are you listening?

Also I have experienced the nose drop issue in a turn for landing and considered that the CG is too nose heavy. I have been reluctant to change the CG because I have it at the rear most recommend point.
Also considered adding a working rudder to help keep the nose from diving in a turn. Has anyone flown their F-16 with a working rudder and if you have what was your experience like?

Thus far I can say this has not been a fun airplane to fly and I am now wishing I had saved the $170 for some thing else. Can you offer any suggestions Dave?

Larry



bearcatf8 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 1:22 AM)

I changed the timeing on my ESC and it is hard to understand the beeps, but I got it correct. It stopped the surging . If you have seen the video of the F-16 on the Horizon web site and heard the sound of the fan, Mine was nothing like that and was not performing anywhere close to that. and was not that stable. Not Bashing it just telling what I saw and felt on mine !



wtmcgehee -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 1:34 AM)

It is not a CG problem. Every ducted fan plane I own has to have have a slight amount of up elevater. If you have them stright with the horizontal stab you need to trim it up alittle.



29904 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 1:35 AM)

Thanks for your answer and me not getting the timing right is probably part of the problem. I guess I am spoiled since I started using Turnagy speed controllers they have made reprogramming so easy with their little card.

I just hope the E-flite fellows work on a simpler programing method for their controllers.
Thanks again,
Larry



29904 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 2:15 AM)

Thanks for your reply but to me that would appear to be a nose heavy situation if you have to trim the elevator up. I have maximum elevator movement but the nose still dives steeply in a turn and the only way to recover is full throttle and hope you have the altitude. That makes for a very tricky approach for landing because of the excess speed necessary to keep control of the bird in the turn for final.

I have considered making a working rudder but that really messes up the Thunderbird decal on the rudder but I guess that would be better than loosing the airplane to a crash because you couldn't keep the nose up in a turn for final.
Thanks again guys,
Larry



huycao -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 7:34 AM)

i wonder if the f-16 in the vid from horizon hobby using stock set up .
my f-16 way tooooo under power . i had to use 100% throtle all the time just to keep it in the air ...
took out the motor and fan to day ....
E-FLITE NOW USING ART-TECH FAN AND MOTOR IN THERE PRODUCT.....i had nothing to say to e-flite ....i just throw away $170 and not very happy with this ...
anyway the jet look nice but can not fly right ...30-35 mph that what i can get for $170 arf jet ....
i'm using phoenix 35 esc and thunder power extreme 3s 2200mah ...
i removed the rocket and rail . make 2 cheater hole on the jet .. still can't make it faster ...
may be need a upgrade motor ....

i had some wemotec 480 fan and mega 16/15/2 ready to install.. but still had some problem with where i can put a 4s 3300mah battery ????
headage ......



bearcatf8 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 1:52 PM)

I too wished I'd save my money for something else. It's a good looking plane if you dont handle it much . I would rather had waited for the BAe Hawk . I think it would have been a better choice . Better fan unit and a lot more money spent ! Well I got a extra battery and a 30 amp ESC that I cant use right now ,well I can use the battery in the T-28. All I got is a pile of styrofoam that use to be the nose section and the rest I could stick to the wall like it ran into it. 170 bucks up a wild hogs .............but ! THANKS H H or should I say E-F



wedgewing -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 2:38 PM)

I do hope that Dave weighs in because he has a chance to turn this thing around if he can.

I am glad that this information is surfacing and at the same time saddened that the posters here have dropped the coin on standard setups that are performing in this fashion.

I walked by both the HL and EF versions at the LHS this weekend and kept walking for now. Still looking to get into EDF, but I will continue to wait and see what comes back from Horizon, as well as seeing what might come out in January from SAPAC. I guess if I get desperate (from waiting) there is always the Phase 3 F16



Sam77 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 5:44 PM)

Ugh. I just got mine put together this weekend - but it's not sounding like I'm going to have a great go at a decent maiden flight. It sounds like I'd be best served by gutting the Art-Tech crap out and putting in a hotter motor and fan.

To the folks that are using the landing gear - any issues with landing at all? Gear breaking/foam breaking/etc?

-Sam



wedgewing -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 6:34 PM)

I would give it a whirl Sam.. Dave from Horizon stated that they have some favorite planes around the office like the T28 and the Corsair. He stated that this plane was one of them too. One of these has to fly as advertised

I am really hoping to hear a report that a successful maiden went off with stock equipment set up and flew as nicely as the Horizon website video... There has to be someone who has the plane fly better than if they just attached the motor to the box it came in....which is what it starting to sound like....

still very little video out there other than the Horizon clip.....maybe too much swearing on the ones filmed [:D]




Sam77 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 7:31 PM)

I love my Trojan and Corsair, so I'm hoping I'll be equally as pleased with the F-16. Once the rain clears up and we get a decent day, it's going up. Given the current forecast, it could be awhile. This thing is built as the manual called for, with the exception of HS-55s instead of S-60 servos as the 55s I had laying around. I have a really good mentor for jets, so if it's too sluggish to have fun with - he'll point me in the right direction for new guts. That is, assuming, the airframe makes it back in one piece. :)

This is my first EDF, but I have a Phase 3 F-16 waiting to be built - and it will have plenty-o-power.



wtmcgehee -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 10:21 PM)

The Landing gear works great. When my motor died I had a hard landing and it took the hit!!



wtmcgehee -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 10:24 PM)

If you havn't flown a EDF before, I would recommend the phase 3 first!



Sam77 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/3/2008 10:36 PM)

Well the Phase 3 is still in the box and the E-flite is finished - all I have left to do is wait for the weather and finish trimming my control surfaces....



29904 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/4/2008 2:25 AM)

Two successful flights today with the Turnagy 40 amp speed controler and everything else stock. Power is sufficient but be very careful in a turn on final because the nose will drop rapidly and just hope you have enough elevator throw, thrust and altitude to survive. I think rudder would help with that problem.
Where I fly I have to make a sharp turn to approach the field and with enough speed to keep the nose up from rapidly dropping I tend to overfly our runway. I am thinking about adding flap/ailerons to deploy when I start adding up elevator to see if that would successfully slow her down for landing.

Other than those mentioned issues she is a real beauty in the air and stable. No problems with the landing gear other than it is too far rearward. I had to bend mine forward so the airframe would gently rotate on take off and won't slam the nose wheel down when the mains hit upon landing. Still wondering if the CG could be back a smidgen further.

Would I purchase this airplane if I had it to do over. Nope, I wouldn't. Why? First of all it is overpriced for what you get. I personally have many other E-flite airplanes that I have a ball with but the frustration factor of this one far out weights the fun factor.



huycao -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/4/2008 3:51 PM)

sent horizonhobby an email on sunday . not repply until now ...
at least the need do some work to find out what the better motor will work with this f-16....
don't want to see this nice f-16 stay grounded ....



huycao -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/5/2008 8:51 AM)

here is the reply from horizon hobby .
Huy, thank you for the email. The plane for being a jet is slow it is
not going to be a fast jet like it looks to be. As far as Art-tech
motor I am not sure what you mean by that they are both Eflite parts.

I hope you find this information useful. If you should have any further
questions, please reply to this email or give us a call at
1-877-504-0233.

Thanks,
Andrew
Product Support Team Member
Horizon Hobby Distributors
4105 Fieldstone Road
Champaign, IL 61822
877-504-0233
productsupport@horizonhobby.com



29904 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/5/2008 12:54 PM)

Where is Dave when we need him? Doesn't he have any solutions to suggest?

Well I finally got my DX-7 programed for flap/ailerons and hope that will help on the landings. Believe it or not my complaint is not that it is too slow. I find that it is fast enough for me but I have to get used to the correct landing procedure. My concern is where the directions state to make sure you set the speed controller for a 2 pole motor but there is no easy way to assure that is done correctly with the E-flite Pro speed controller. Jogging the stick and counting confusing beeps doesn't get for me. After replacing the brand new E-flite Pro speed controller, another shot $45, with the Turnagy 40 amp that problem was eliminated.

Dropping the nose in a turn. Probably a problem with all pusher type airframes that I will have to get used to and I will have to carry higher speed into my turns.

Considered a workable rudder to counter the dropping nose but the encountered problems outweighed the benefits so that idea was dropped.

Will post my next flight report as soon as the weather clears.
Larry



bearcatf8 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/5/2008 1:57 PM)

Looks like we all agree that the CG should be at the rear location and then some . I think it will eventualy be a nice plane ,it's still got some bugs to work out .The speed was OK for me ,I just didn't like having to hoss it around to get it to turn and when I did ,Igot into the Sun and was blinded . Too low to come out of a dive and nosed into the ground. Only got 3/4 around the field ,so not much air time. Had no trouble setting the ESC for 2 pole motor ,Had the correct throws on the ailerons and elevators and the CG was on the fwd edge . It just wasn't my Day.



David Eichstedt -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/6/2008 12:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 29904

Where is Dave when we need him? Doesn't he have any solutions to suggest?

Well I finally got my DX-7 programed for flap/ailerons and hope that will help on the landings. Believe it or not my complaint is not that it is too slow. I find that it is fast enough for me but I have to get used to the correct landing procedure. My concern is where the directions state to make sure you set the speed controller for a 2 pole motor but there is no easy way to assure that is done correctly with the E-flite Pro speed controller. Jogging the stick and counting confusing beeps doesn't get for me. After replacing the brand new E-flite Pro speed controller, another shot $45, with the Turnagy 40 amp that problem was eliminated.

Dropping the nose in a turn. Probably a problem with all pusher type airframes that I will have to get used to and I will have to carry higher speed into my turns.

Considered a workable rudder to counter the dropping nose but the encountered problems outweighed the benefits so that idea was dropped.

Will post my next flight report as soon as the weather clears.
Larry


Been in China for 2 1/2 weeks, just got back last night. Currently am hitting a wall but I still need to stay up for at least 3 hours to force myself back into Central time.

Not sure what to tell you about our ESC programming method except thanks for the feedback.

The airplane you see in the video is completely stock with the recommended Thunder Power ProLite 2100 battery and 25A ESC. That's how we film all our products, using the recommended setups. We have not used radar or doppler to measure the speed, but many of us in the office have been flying jets for quite a while and we all estimate top speed in the 55-65mph range.

Even with the ProLite, the cg does end up a little farther forward than we would have liked, but that was the best we could get. If you're using a heavier battery, you're going to need even more up trim, up control throw, and maybe even a little tail weight. You'll definitely need more up elevator in the turns. Much better to go with a lighter battery and keep a couple ounces out of the plane, which makes a big difference. This is most likely why someone in an earlier post had to bend his landing gear forward; too heavy of a battery.

If this is your first jet, realize that it takes a lot more up elevator to get a jet to rotate. There is no propwash hitting the tail surfaces, so it takes pure airspeed to get control surface effectiveness.

Sorry to hear so many people are having issues with the motors. All I can say is keep calling Product Support. As frustrating as it is to buy a product that leaves you disappointed, believe me it's ten times more frustrating when you're the one trying to develop a product that you think is going to be great and your customers end up disappointed.



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