RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (Full Version)

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DNCrosby -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/9/2008 1:15 AM)

I have just put together my F-16 and am running on mostly stock components, Servos, Battery, but I'm using a 7Ch, Spektrum Receiver with my DX7, and a Castle 35 Amp ESC, since I have the software to program it, and I'm not afraid of soldering :D

I Hope to put an afterburner (LED) Kit into the model once, complete and hook that up to the ESC, as well as Landing and Nav lights to some of the Aux Switches, or just trigger em with the flaps.
(I'll post some tips once complete)

Either way I'm having a heck of a time Interpreting the instructions for the radio setup from the DX6i to go over to the DX7. I hooked my Ailerons to Ail, and Aux1 like instructed, and the elevator to Ele, and Gear, as I recall. And I'm unable to see both servos respond, I basically get one side (the one plugged into Ael and Ale fine (of course) but nothing on the other side. How do you setup the DX7 to mirror the input for Ailerons, and Elevators, and has anybody found Flaperon settings that help with landing ? I Reset the model to conform back to standard "Acro" plane settings, and told it I was using flaperons. Which I understand should according to the instructions, use Aux1 and Gear for the "opposite" of Ailerons, and Elevators.

Also Any "Tips" on nose wheel steering setup, mine seems very stiff, and has very little defection, maybe increase the % in the rudder ? Also the servo seems to struggle to move the wheel, hence "Stiff" maybe I need to drill out the hole...?

Other than that. it seems to be a breeze to put together, the Aileron Servo Connector length is definitely an issue for people with large fingers, as there is little space to maneuver under / behind the canopy, and then adding ESC, and Radio + Wires, makes it messy, and tight = bad combo.

I hope my maiden flight will keep the nose area out of the dirt and in one piece, but time will tell.

-Derek



WildBlueYawnder -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/9/2008 2:25 AM)

Derek,

The DX7 setup is slightly different, mainly because the transmitter menus use slightly different terminology for the same function as the DX6i (I have both but I chose to put my F-16 on the DX7). It took me about an hour to figure out how to program the DX7. I sent a message to John Redman and Dave Eichstedt that it would be nice for the customers if they put a service bulletin on the Horizon web site about how to program the DX7 but so far I've been ignored. Dave was apparently in China when I sent the email with that and other suggestions and I haven't received a reply from him.

I have not maidened my F-16 yet. The weather is crap here right now so it's going to be awhile. About a week ago I was at the field ready to go and accidently pulled two wires out of one of the S60 aileron servos. Those tiny short wires got me. If I had longer extensions on the servos it never would have happened. I was messing with the wires just before the maiden and they are so tight my big fingers flubbed up and jerked the wires out of the connector. It didn't take much pressure to do it.

The settings below are fairly conservative pending first flight modifications and what I've read in this forum about responsiveness. You'll need to modify the settings to your preference but these should get all of your control surfaces moving in the right direction.

Note: I set my dual rates to the same value for the UP and DOWN position of the MIX switches so as I switch between planes I can be lazy and not have to worry about the position of the dual rate switches until I've completed the maiden flight and tweaked things to my satisfaction. After I know the flight characteristics of the F-16 I'll go ahead and setup individual HIGH and LOW rates.

Anyway, here is my DX7 setup (don't forget the mixes). By the way, this is the first DX7 Mix programming I've done so I'm no expert:

Wing Type
Flaperon............ON...............(instead of DX6i DUALAILE ACT)

Elev-Gear..........ON...............(instead of DX6i ACT)
Rate:.................D +100........Push UP on the elevator stick to change this one (Took me a while to figure out)
.........................U +100........Push DOWN on the elevator stick to change this one

Gear-Gear.........ON...............(instead of DX6i ACT)
........................D -100..........Gear switch in 0 position to change this one
........................U -100..........Gear switch in 1 position to change this one

Follow the DX6i instructions for the Servo Connections.

I programmed some flaps (flaperons) as follows (I was conservative since a little flap goes a long way on my T-34 - I will change after testing). I've heard that flaperons with an aileron that is not full length of the wing can be problematic (ie: tip stalls) so I will try the flaperonss at a high altitude the first time.

.............Flap................Elev
Norm..........0%..............0
Mid......DN 10%..............0
Land....DN 20%..............0

Reversing (this is Different than the DX6i setting)
Throttle..................N
Right Aileron...........N
Right Elevator.........R
Rudder...................R
Gear/Left Elevator...N
Aux1/Left Aileron.....N

[D/R & EXP]
AILE
Exp......+50
D/R......D 50%..............I set only one rate to begin with so I can't get messed up if the switches aren't right when switching between plane.
............U 50%..............I limited the Aileron quite a bit based on earlier forum comments about the responsiveness.

RUDD
Exp.......+30
D/R.......D 40%
.............U 40%..............I set only one rate to begin with so I can't get messed up if the switches aren't right. I limited the RUDD/Nose wheel quite a bit as you can see.

ELEV
Exp.......+50
D/R......D 80%..............I set only one rate to begin with so I can't get messed up if the switches aren't right.
............U 80%

These settings work for me. I hope they work for you too. I used the ... to format the columns since the wonderful forum software removes extra spaces from the text.

I did not experience nosewheel stiffness. I had lots more deflection than I needed and thats why my RUDD dual rates are at 40%.

The blue decal on the bottom of the wing is very sensitive to hanger rash. I've used a black sharpie to cover the white spots that have shown up on mine. I couldn't find a dark enough blue Sharpie but the black works pretty good (much better than white showing through). I originally tried a dark blue Sharpie but it wasn't nearly dark enough. The black blends right in.

I did completely miss that the ESC should be set for a two pole motor (even though it's highlighted right there in the manual) so I made that change today.



DNCrosby -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/9/2008 6:20 PM)

After Playing with it (like you for about an hour or so) I figured it out, I had two issues which looked like 1, The Left Aeleron and The Left Elevator had different issues, one was the wire was loose, I actually broke the clip that holds the pin in the plastic connector, and so the Black wire was able to be pushed back, and not make a connection. And the Elevator was setup properly but both U and D % were @ 0 just like you said, took a while and then it hit me ... WHY 0%?? and then it started working.

I was about to clue on my Vertical Stab (Rudder) and then it hit me, how am I going to put on the lights when they come next week.... So I didn't glue it in place, so I can fish the wires through, and hopefully get the strobe on top of the Rudder...(V-Stab) and I was looking at the nose wheel gear, why couldn't you put a +(Cross) type horn on it and run a small linkage through the foam to the back ? Trim the rudder with a sharp hot knife off, put some hinges in and presto Ruder !? No Extra servo needed... I am tempted to try it, but I've never built something like that from scratch, and am uncertain as to what I'd need... and weather the length (friction) is too much for the Nosewheel servo to overcome ? I also fixed my nosewheel steering a bit seems like it was just a little tight, once I removed the wheel to properly adjust height, and put on the bottom nut to keep it from sliding higher it worked a lot better...

So this weekend I get to practice some more on my GP Yak55, and then next weekend I'll graduate to Jets :D I have an HD-CAM if I can convince my wife to film me I'll post it on vimeo or something....

Oh and the ESC, I forgot I used a Phoenix 35 amp ESC, setup on my PC(Castle Link) to disable Brake, and reverse the motor, everything else was default. I didn't see any settings even in advanced, for 2 Pole... is that a setting just on the E-Flite stuff or is that on all ESC's ?

Thanks for the help ! :D



WildBlueYawnder -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/10/2008 2:29 AM)

Hmm. Sorry I don't know about the Phoenix ESC and 2 Pole setup. I've only used E-Flite ESC's. I don't know how critical the 2 pole change is. I've wondered if the guys with the motor problems are experiencing damage from not running with the 2 pole mod?

One more note on my setup: I found that I couldn't change the servo travel and get expected results (ie: one aileron would go UP more than the other went DOWN, one elevator went up more than the other went up, etc) so I gave up and limited the servo travel with the RATES. I'm sure the servo travel settings would work if I spent more time on it but the RATES change was a quicker fix.

The rudder should work OK off the nose wheel servo. I may do it myself but for now I'll try it without the rudder. If you make the change please post some pictures and let us know how it works out for you.

If the weather clears up I'll have some video of mine too.

I'm glad you got yours working.



DNCrosby -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/10/2008 6:18 PM)

I Generally Stay off the rudder, unless doing Immelmans or other "Hot Dogging" Scissoring etc...

Funny how you had the same issues with your Aelerons and Elevators. I was going to take your tutorial, and give it a try after backing up my setup to see if I could get better response or at least even the resonse I was getting.
A Quick rundown from E-Flite would be really great!
I Assume they have some sort of relation, if not owned by the same company (Horizon?), since they advocate the DX6i. So helping us setup a DX7 should be in their interest.

I Guess I'll ping Castle on the ESC Issue. I'll post a follow up if I get an answer.

-Derek



Rick_H -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/11/2008 8:18 AM)

DNCrosby

So what did Castle have to say?

Rick



DNCrosby -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/11/2008 5:17 PM)

My Letter to them,
quote:


I Have Purchased a Castle Creation Phoenix 25 and a Phoenix 35.
The 35 is supposed to go into the E-Flite F16 - 400 that I purchased, and since I've had good experiences with the 25, and bought the digital link I decided to do the same for the F16 with the 35.
Now to my question in the setup, the Manual states that the ESC needs to be setup using "2Pole" mode to get the ducted fan to perform at peak efficiency. And a lot of my fellow modelers have had issues with the stock fan burning out. I'd like to avoid this, but could not find any setting for "2 Pole" in the Help or Manual. Any Ideas what if anything I need to channge ? This is BTW, running a 3 Cell 2100mah 20C Pack and a "400" Size Ducted Fan from E-Flite (Came with the model).


Derek,

That is with their ESC...our ESCs auto sense the # of poles in the motor. Set the motor timing to low advance if people are burning out the stock motors. The other things you'll want to change are the throttle type (set to fixed endpoints and calibrate per instructions below), brake disabled, current limiting insensitive, and motor start power to high.

Bring your high side and low side endpoints on your throttle channel down to 25%, plug in the battery pack with the throttle stick at full (it won't start up), then bring your high endpoint back out towards (and sometimes past) 100% until you hear a single tone. Next, bring your throttle stick down to the bottom position and bring the endpoint out from 25% out towards (and possibly past) 100% until you hear the ESC arm. Unplug the battery pack, wait a few seconds, then plug back in and verify that the throttle is working properly.

Joe Ford
Product Specialist
Castle Creations



kable21 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/11/2008 11:18 PM)

Flew my F-16 for the first time today and it flew great, I used the Eflite 30A Speed Control and a Thunderpower pro lite 2600 20C battery. Got about a 7 minute flight out of it. I was impressed that it tracked very well and looks just like the real thing! However I got carried away and flew to long and had to dead stick in, it glided very smoothly back on the runway. I uploaded a video of it on youtube its hard to make out but I could never find any videos on this thing so just thought id put on out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dqwOZv3lMU




kable21 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/12/2008 1:22 AM)

Actually change that thought, I charged up another battery and wen't to fly it again this evening and what did I find? The motor burnt up [:o]. One flight and its grounded, I hadn't even flown the plane at full throttle. The deadstick I had was actually the motor seizing because afterwards I smelt somthing burning. Man I dont know if there is anyone out there whose had over three flights? this kind of stinks!



DNCrosby -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/12/2008 1:59 AM)

OUCH ! That makes me really un-easy going out this upcoming weekend !

Still you're running on the stock (recommended) electronics... I wonder if the Castle setup will spare my motor ! [:-]
This is just terrible for the rep of this thing...

How was the travel on your flaperons, and elevators ? Did you get all the bugs beforehand worked out ? (aside from the motor ?)

-Derek\

P.S. Nice video, if you have tape of the landing I'd love to see how it handled dead stick...



kable21 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/12/2008 3:12 AM)

Yes, I do have a short bit of footage of the landing, The take-off was well, plane performed outstanding, had good attitude and performance most of the flight was at half and ¾ for a period of about seven minutes. And yes I had all recommended eflite electronics in there, Eflite 30-amp esc, all S-60 eflite servos, thunder power 2600 pro lite battery, ar6100 reciever with thte spektrum Dx6i radio. I had the Trims adjusted for low rates and the model balanced one cm nose heavy to recommendations. When I test ran the motor after The first flight it appears there is mechanical grinding, motor runs real slow followed by overheating/burning odor.
I just sent Horizon a letter and I hope they can work with me as I am very pleased with the planes performance overall.

Here is a short clip shot at the end of the deadstick.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_2o77xMmdA



bearcatf8 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/12/2008 5:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kable21

Yes, I do have a short bit of footage of the landing, The take-off was well, plane performed outstanding, had good attitude and performance most of the flight was at half and ¾ for a period of about seven minutes. And yes I had all recommended eflite electronics in there, Eflite 30-amp esc, all S-60 eflite servos, thunder power 2600 pro lite battery, ar6100 reciever with thte spektrum Dx6i radio. I had the Trims adjusted for low rates and the model balanced one cm nose heavy to recommendations. When I test ran the motor after The first flight it appears there is mechanical grinding, motor runs real slow followed by overheating/burning odor.
I just sent Horizon a letter and I hope they can work with me as I am very pleased with the planes performance overall.

Here is a short clip shot at the end of the deadstick.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_2o77xMmdA

I got a fan and motor from my nose less plane if they dont send you another one !I would liked to had one full flight on mine . It ran well ,had the 6100 Rec. V2 battery and was balanced just like yours. Was very unstable and got lost in the sun.



Nitro66612 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/13/2008 3:42 AM)

Would the Stryker C motor and esc be a good upgrade.

And a quick ? why do edf last for 4-6min why prop jets fly longer



ssrc30 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/13/2008 4:47 AM)

Because EDF uses alot more power than prop does.



ssrc30 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/13/2008 5:07 AM)

Is the E-Flite F-16 available in military colors, or just in the Thunderbirds config.?



DNCrosby -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/13/2008 6:19 AM)

From E-Flite just the Thunderbirds, but it's foam, and you could easily paint it whatever color you want.

I Taxied mine around in the dark tonight after work, like an idiot, for 10 Min. Trying to listen to the fan at different speeds, and seeing how it behaved... all of a sudden it lost power, and I was thinking well better on the ground, turns out the battery was dead... :D (No Burnt Smell etc...) I won't be suprised if my neighbors call the funny farm tomorrow. Me out there chasing a plane in the dark, and then sniffing the tailpipe, like as if I were some horny dog out for a good time :D
So, so far no issues, but I haven't flown her yet....



ssrc30 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/13/2008 5:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DNCrosby

From E-Flite just the Thunderbirds, but it's foam, and you could easily paint it whatever color you want.

I Taxied mine around in the dark tonight after work, like an idiot, for 10 Min. Trying to listen to the fan at different speeds, and seeing how it behaved... all of a sudden it lost power, and I was thinking well better on the ground, turns out the battery was dead... :D (No Burnt Smell etc...) I won't be suprised if my neighbors call the funny farm tomorrow. Me out there chasing a plane in the dark, and then sniffing the tailpipe, like as if I were some horny dog out for a good time :D
So, so far no issues, but I haven't flown her yet....



Scooby dooby doooooooooooooo[:)] lol....

Hey, we have all been there, done that, in one way or another in our quest to find the cause of one malfunction or another.



DNCrosby -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/13/2008 8:05 PM)

Had kind of a weird issue with the charger. The Lightning charger, refused to recognize the pack as a 3 Cell Lipo, and wanted to charge it as a 2 cell.. then said voltage to high error (Duh) it's a 3 cell not a 2. After two tries I of it being forced to 3, I tried auto, and it worked with it detecting 3 Cell, and charged it to full capacity @ 1 Amp over 180 Minutes... I think I can go to 5 Amp and make it go back to the speed it was before but the whole Error charging threw me.. is that a symptom of draining the battery too much... I'm used to NiCad's where you worry about memory, and try and drain the battery till the motor refuses to turn....

-Derek



kable21 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/13/2008 8:35 PM)

I sen't horizon an e-mail a cuple days ago but have not heard a response yes so i decided to call them and see what I could find out. They didn't seem to be very cooperative with me I pretty much was the one doing all the talking... I told him my circumstances and that I was using there recommended items, the whole situation that after one flight this thing is done??? I told him that I saw people in this blog and others were having the same problems and that this is not an e-flite motor and some junk motor. He said "yes we generally put a generic motor in things that come with the motor, not our brand of e-flite motors"?? I then said well is there any chance you will be reformatting these with and e-flite motor?? he said "probably not" I'am pretty disappointed and am unhappy having spent more money ($400+) than I should have just to get this plane flying and this thing shouldn't do this after one flight. He then replied "well since it was in working order from the box (basically meaning, hey it worked once for ya) you will have to send the motor in and we can go from there. The phone went silent and he said do you know the address and I got the address from him, then there was Silence...... I said um are you guys going to reimburse me for the shipping? He said "no its the customers responsibility to get a warranted item to us". I' am not to happy right now, as a long time customer of horizon, I have purchased several airplanes, products, ect. from them and I have always recieved excellent service and product. I hope I was just stuck with the guy who was in a shady mood today. So now i guess I will send them my junk motor and wait around for an unknown period of time and see what happens. Before I even built mine I was reading these and discovering the findings that everyones motor seems to burn up. so nervousley on my first flight It was like is it gonna smoke or not? I didn't even fly at full throttle, only for about 5 secconds on take off. Well unfortunatley it smoked. I will fill in as I get any further details.



Robbbie -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/13/2008 10:11 PM)

Well my motor went out on the first flight, resulted ins a crash. I did repair. Not sure if the ESC, motor is good. This plane has to many issues to buy another ESC, motor. Will be sending the complete plane back with letter to Horzion Hobbie. Live and learn, never buy a product before reviews. $ 325.92 lession well learned. Phase 3 F16 is the way to go. It's my feeling you should stay away from this one.

RS



wedgewing -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/14/2008 12:20 AM)

This is starting to sound like "Plug N Pay". I keep holding out for a happy story.................[:(]



albert -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/14/2008 1:19 AM)

I bought one also before I read this thread. I took the motor out and put a E-Flight 400 in with the hopes I will not have all the problems others are having. (put the E-Flight 400 in only because I had one) I will report back as soon as I get a chance to fly.

Albert



kable21 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/14/2008 2:18 AM)

great I would like to know how it flies with the e-flite 400 motor, is that the inrunner motor?



DNCrosby -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/14/2008 2:32 AM)

Wow that sucks kable21, I am now all jittery about taking her up, just to loose her and have to start a fight with Horizon.
I too have bought a bunch of stuff from them, and was really weary since I hadn't heard much on this model, hopefully they'll realize the error and either fix them, or give vouchers to purchase a "Better" motor at "Cost" or something... to make this right... It's such a cool model, I just don't want to see it in tiny Styrofoam pieces on the ground because of faulty power plant...

Worse yet is that it looks like I have to work this weekend as well, and I won't get enough time to take it easy and prep everything to make certain the conditions (wind) etc... are right for it's maiden flight.

-Derek



kable21 -> RE: ***** New E Flite F16 400 DF (Thunderbird Scheme) ***** (11/14/2008 2:56 AM)

Ya, i totally agree DNCrosby, I hope it works out for you. I have several of there airplanes (hanger 9 and so fourth) from little all the way to a big 80 inch wingspan Cap232. And yes it is a cool plane I will hope horizon can do something if not i wont be too happy but ill hope to find a motor out there that will work because the plane did fly well thats the only thing keepin me calm about it. I was fortunate at least when the motor quit it didn't turn into a bag of foam. I would highly recomend on your first flight to climb high right after take off and stay there at a safe altitude just to be safe, thats what I did and since it glided relatively smooth that gave me plenty of time to glide back to the runway.



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