Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith

Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> AMA Discussions >> Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith

Page: [1] 2 3 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 4:41:14 PM

Red Scholefield

Posts: 5024
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Newberry, FL, USA
Status: offline

I just wanted to share with you something that pretty well defines the two candidates for AMA EVP.

I posted the following on Mark Smith's RCU campagin forum:

There are a number of leader members that monitor this forum and provide answers re: AMA. Could they not be used as official AMA monitors?

_____________________________

Red S.
AMA 951 Leader Member

(in reply to marktsmith)
Post #: 3

Mark Smiths's reply

Posts: 14
Joined: 9/7/2008
From: Shawnee, KS, USA
Status: offline Hi Red! Great suggestion and I will bounce this around staff and the EC. In the interim, one of the things we shoot for is excellent customer service and I feel confident that any modeler who has a question can call our toll free number, talk with the operator and she will route the modeler to one of our knowledgeable staff. Additionally, our President is very approachable as is our ED.
Mark

Then compare with Horrace Cain's message to me on the subject:

Guess you now know where the EXCELLENT info. source is. Ha, Ha, Ha. Trolling for more recognition, eh Red?

If leader members were smart, that stupid Bylaw would not have passed allowing the powers in Muncie to set up a puppet CFO. The circle is coming together: right back to the John Worth era where ED and staff control everything. Just think, Red, you're now a part of all that. Congratulations!
_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years
Official Candidate: AMA Ex. Vice Pres. Vote H. Cain. Help move AMA into 21st Century
The only source of knowledge is experience. Albert Einstein

_____________________________

Red S.
AMA 951 Leader Member
Disclaimer: What I have written here are my thoughts and in no manner shape or form reflect the views of RCU

Post #: 1

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 5:10:53 PM

littlecrankshaf

Posts: 2147
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

I just wanted to share with you something that pretty well defines the two candidates for AMA EVP.

I posted the following on Mark Smith's RCU campagin forum:

There are a number of leader members that monitor this forum and provide answers re: AMA. Could they not be used as official AMA monitors?

_____________________________

Red S.
AMA 951 Leader Member

(in reply to marktsmith)
Post #: 3

Mark Smiths's reply

Posts: 14
Joined: 9/7/2008
From: Shawnee, KS, USA
Status: offline Hi Red! Great suggestion and I will bounce this around staff and the EC. In the interim, one of the things we shoot for is excellent customer service and I feel confident that any modeler who has a question can call our toll free number, talk with the operator and she will route the modeler to one of our knowledgeable staff. Additionally, our President is very approachable as is our ED.
Mark

Then compare with Horrace Cain's message to me on the subject:

Guess you now know where the EXCELLENT info. source is. Ha, Ha, Ha. Trolling for more recognition, eh Red?

If leader members were smart, that stupid Bylaw would not have passed allowing the powers in Muncie to set up a puppet CFO. The circle is coming together: right back to the John Worth era where ED and staff control everything. Just think, Red, you're now a part of all that. Congratulations!
_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years
Official Candidate: AMA Ex. Vice Pres. Vote H. Cain. Help move AMA into 21st Century
The only source of knowledge is experience. Albert Einstein

It is unfortunate and disappointing to say the very least, How did we allow the focus of promoting the hobby to shift?

_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

(in reply to Red Scholefield)

Post #: 2

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 5:17:21 PM

Kemosobie

Posts: 109
Joined: 8/4/2008
From: Ghost Town, USA
Status: offline

Mark Smith has my vote.

(in reply to Red Scholefield)

Post #: 3

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 5:53:35 PM

s3nfo

Posts: 483
Joined: 1/9/2002
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Status: offline

Gee Horace, even though I'm apparently not bright enough to make a simple decision on rules, I somehow managed to get a Bachelors in Business (3.8 GPA), a Masters in Computer Science (4.0 GPA), graduate from Navy Officer Candidate School and Flight School (as I'm sure you know a 50% drop out rate is the norm) and raise 5 kids who turned out pretty well despite being raised on Navy Enlisted pay early on and moving frequently. Appreciate you defining my cognitive station in life for me, don't know what I'd do without your sage advice.

_____________________________

Jerry N
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf

(in reply to Kemosobie)

Post #: 4

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 6:25:40 PM

Bob Mitchell

Posts: 820
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Red Scholefield

Then compare with Horrace Cain's message to me on the subject:

Guess you now know where the EXCELLENT info. source is. Ha, Ha, Ha. Trolling for more recognition, eh Red?

If leader members were smart, that stupid Bylaw would not have passed allowing the powers in Muncie to set up a puppet CFO. The circle is coming together: right back to the John Worth era where ED and staff control everything. Just think, Red, you're now a part of all that. Congratulations!
_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years
Official Candidate: AMA Ex. Vice Pres. Vote H. Cain. Help move AMA into 21st Century
The only source of knowledge is experience. Albert Einstein

In the vote that Horrace is referring to above, 51% of all Leader Members voted. Of those, 96% approved the bylaws change. That's 49+% of the total. Here's what Horrace had to say about that:

"I am with sorrow that the Leader Members in their uninformed naive state-of-mind passed this ludicrous change to the Bylaws."

This is just so typical of Horrace's reaction to people who disagree with him. He belittles, he makes personal attacks, you become the enemy, or a dissadent, or someone who doesn't want to look at the true story and on and on.....Someone who operates this way is doomed to fail in a political environment where you can't just raise your voice and yell my way or the highway. In a positon such as EVP to be effective one has to convince, sway, and lead others to his point of view. Horrace doesn't work that way.

Here's what Eisenhower had to say about that style of "leadership" "You don't lead by hitting people over the head - that's assault, not leadership. "

_____________________________

Bob Mitchell AMA 903015
H9 Alpha 60/Evolution 61NT, Sig 4* 60/OS 75AX, H9 95" Skylane/OS 160 FX, Futaba 7C 2.4GHz

(in reply to Red Scholefield)

Post #: 5

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 7:31:17 PM

F106A

Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Clifton, NJ, USA
Status: offline

Hi,
Since Mark admitted he was instrumental in the PF program, my vote goes to Hoss.
IMHO, the PF program is waste of time going after a group of people that could care less about modeling. The targeted group may get a PF, but when they get bored with it they’ll move on to the next activity, forgetting all about their modeling “experience”.
I’ve been on this forum for a long time, in fact, since the days when the late J_R was posting, no one has ever explained the payoff for this program, and other than to try and get PF’s out to a field and talk to modelers. This program does nothing to teach building skills, how to trim a model, how to set up a “real” radio, etc.
Instead of pushing aside the members who have built and supported the hobby and AMA, maybe the time, money and resources used for the PF program could be better used to support flying sites, dealing with the FAA and their regulations that are surely coming sometime in the future to control model aircraft operations, make MA at least break even, and a host of other things that are a lot more important to the future of modeling/AMA than trying to recruit Wal-Mart foamie customers.
But alas, the PF program is here and I fear it’s not going anywhere for a long time and it will continue to drain away resources needed in other areas, much to the determent of the AMA.
Jon

(in reply to Bob Mitchell)

Post #: 6

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 8:33:08 PM

Bob Mitchell

Posts: 820
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: F106A
But alas, the PF program is here and I fear it’s not going anywhere for a long time and it will continue to drain away resources needed in other areas, much to the determent of the AMA.
Jon

The success, or lack of success of the PPP program is yet to be determined, I think. It will be interesting to see if this and other initiatives are successful in turning around the trend of declining membership. My guess is that it will take 2-3 years at the least to know for sure. Given the overwhelming support of the current EC for the program, it seems to me that the program is here to stay regardless of who is elected. (Keep that in mind)

You bring up an interesting point in your comment about resources, and what percentage of time and money it actually represents. Support it or not, it would be good to know just what it is costing on an annual basis. Why don't you ask him?

The financial statements really don't shed any light on the cost of the program. For 2007 marketing costs (not including MA) were about $420K or <5% of total expenditures. That's actually down from 2006 both in $ and %. How much of that may be due to PPP is not clear. In addition, since staff salaries are listed as a separate line item, there is no way to determine how much of that is a direct expense of the program or is unrelated. The Org chart show 5 people with "marketing" next to their name, but based on the breakdown of what they are doing most don't appear to be related to PPP at all. Interestingly enough, PPP is not listed under any of the names.

I don't know about you, but IMO the top two priorities facing AMA leadership are declining membership and retention/acquisition of flying fields. I don't know if the PF program will have a measurable effect on membership, but it seems the EC sees it as one of their major (if not top) programs to bring in new members. Given that it seems to me that we should support it, until it's shown to either be a success or a failure.

Mark's position is quite clear. I thought his reply to you was direct, to the point and unequivocal.

OTOH, Horrace claims that he is reserving his opinion about PPP, but it seems to me that his statments make it clear that this is not the case. I suspect that if elected he will actively work against the program and try to undermine it. I don't see how that could be at all helpful to the AMA. Like it or not the program is in place and as such deserves a chance to work.

I've been in chemical manufacturing most of my adult life in various management and line/staff positions. I've been low enough on the totem pole to be making some, but not all of the decisions; and high enough that once a decision is made I had to actively support the decision and sell it to those that worked for me. You gotta ask yourself if you want an EVP who is going to try to make it work, or an EVP who is probably going to try to make it not work.

_____________________________

Bob Mitchell AMA 903015
H9 Alpha 60/Evolution 61NT, Sig 4* 60/OS 75AX, H9 95" Skylane/OS 160 FX, Futaba 7C 2.4GHz

(in reply to F106A)

Post #: 7

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 8:57:22 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9237
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

The financial statements really don't shed any light on the cost of the program. For 2007 marketing costs (not including MA) were about $420K or <5% of total expenditures. That's actually down from 2006 both in $ and %. How much of that may be due to PPP is not clear. In addition, since staff salaries are listed as a separate line item, there is no way to determine how much of that is a direct expense of the program or is unrelated. The Org chart show 5 people with "marketing" next to their name, but based on the breakdown of what they are doing most don't appear to be related to PPP at all. Interestingly enough, PPP is not listed under any of the names.

Well one of the reasons Hoss himself stated that the good ol boys at the AMA wasn't too happy about him was because he couldn't keep AMA secrets ... secrets. I couldn't agree more with them. Some things need to be handled by those that understand directly. You think you know 1/10 the things Bush knows ... no. Same thing, same principle.

Personally I don't think most really care what the line item expenses the AMA uses as long as people get what they pay for. Leave it to the ED, EC, Accoutants, CFO, Auditors and the IRS to worry about how the money is spent in Muncie. Let the people know as little as possible and instead of them worrying about where their money goes, let them enjoy the benefits they signed up.

This is the reason that most will not vote in AMA EC elections, people are getting what they are asking and paying for and those 7% that do vote, well they are just looking for something else to keep them busy. No matter how the AMA spends the money doesn't really mean much. A thread will start, people will complain and it will drift off into cyberspace. Me, I'll trust the AMA to start or stop a program, seems they have a decent track record and fine leadership at the moment.

Also remember the PPP was officially launched in Jan of 08, so you'll prolly never see it tied into 07's accounting record. However I would bet a good amount of dollars (anyone willing PM me) to anyone that the 08 P&L will reflect PPP operating costs.

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to Bob Mitchell)

Post #: 8

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 9:00:43 PM

Red Scholefield

Posts: 5024
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: Newberry, FL, USA
Status: offline

From the AMA INSIDER http://www.modelaircraft.org/insider/index.html (anyone can subscribe to this)

PRESIDENT TO PRESIDENT
Have You Cast Your Vote Yet?
by Dave Mathewson, AMA President
This issue of the AMA Insider will reach your E-mail inbox shortly before AMA’s annual election season. Offices up for election this year include vice presidents in Districts III, VII, and XI, as well as a national election for Executive Vice President (EVP). Additionally, this year there is also a special election in District II to fill the vacancy created when I was elected president.

We were more than a little disappointed at the voter turnout last year and, because of that, have taken a close look at the voting process to see if there were changes that could be made to improve member participation. This research has resulted in some changes for this year.

Our members have told us that the primary reason they don’t vote is because they aren’t familiar enough with the candidates to make an informed decision. Candidate campaign statements can be found in Model Aviation and they will be posted on the AMA Web site. I also understand that both candidates for the national EVP position intend to participate in an open discussion area on at least one of the popular Internet forums.

The biggest change being made this year involves how our members will receive their ballots. In 2007 ballots were sent to our members as a two-part postcard. The member simply tore off the ballot portion, checked a box, placed a stamp on it, and dropped it in the mail. This worked well for those that had at least some knowledge of the candidates, but we felt it fell short for those who needed more help in making a decision. To find that help required the member to hunt for information on the candidates since none was included with the ballot postcard.

This year the election ballot is included with membership renewals. There are a couple of significant advantages in doing it this way. First, now we are able to include all of the candidates’ campaign statements in the same mailing that includes the ballot. That puts the information directly into the hands of the voters without them having to make an effort to go look for it. The most significant change this year is that the ballots will be postage-paid, return mail. Putting the ballot in with renewals saved an additional mailing and that savings was more than enough to offset the cost of a postage-paid ballot.

We’re looking at additional changes for future elections, possibly even making the option to vote electronically available to our members. However, we’re hoping that the changes we’ve made this year will at least result in a step in the right direction.

Even with these changes we could still use your help. We’re asking club officers to encourage their members to become involved in the system and vote. Like local club elections, this is an opportunity for a member to play a part in selecting the person he or she feels is best suited to lead AMA in the direction her or she thinks it should go. And, in those cases where there may only be one candidate, the incumbent, running for a position, please still consider casting a vote. Doing this will act as a barometer and help give that person an indication of how the membership feels about the job currently being done. As officers, you all know how important this is.

Finally, it’s important to make sure the ballot is sent to the auditors at the address on the front of the ballot. In the past, some members have returned their ballot to AMA Headquarters in Muncie along with their membership renewal. AMA can only count ballots that are sent directly to the auditor.

_____________________________

Red S.
AMA 951 Leader Member
Disclaimer: What I have written here are my thoughts and in no manner shape or form reflect the views of RCU

(in reply to Bob Mitchell)

Post #: 9

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 9:47:01 PM

F106A

Posts: 1472
Joined: 4/13/2002
From: Clifton, NJ, USA
Status: offline

Bob,
I'll ask, but I don't expect that they have a full accounting of what it's taken so far to get this program launched, nor would I expect them to.
As far as Hoss, I admire his experience and what he's done for modeling, and, to be honest, I feel we need someone there that will shake up the troops, as opposed to another bureaucrat (no offense to Steve).
What we need is another Earl Witt, probably one of the best presidents we've had in a long time, and I think Hoss fits the bill.
Working well with others does not always produce the best results, sometimes you have to butt heads to get the desired results.
As far as the PF program, like I said, it's a done deal. While I'm not going to sabotage it, I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to support it either. It would be hypocritical of me to say that I'm against it and then, at the same time, go out and be a cheerleader for it.
Jon

(in reply to Red Scholefield)

Post #: 10

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 9:49:20 PM

Silent-AV8R

Posts: 1822
Joined: 3/16/2004
From: SOCAL, CA, USA
Status: offline

So the point is that we are all too stupid to know what is good for us and need to elect Horrace so he can focus his considerable intellect on the problems at the AMA. The very problems we stupid members cannot grasp.

I for one, am glad that Horrace is willing to help shepherd us through our own ignorance.

But I'm so stupid I'll probably vote for Mark Smith.

Like Momma always said, "Stupid is as stupid does".

_____________________________

Reality is Subjective. At least that's what I think.

(in reply to Red Scholefield)

Post #: 11

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 10:38:46 PM

Bob Mitchell

Posts: 820
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: F106A
As far as the PF program, like I said, it's a done deal. While I'm not going to sabotage it, I'm certainly not going to go out of my way to support it either. It would be hypocritical of me to say that I'm against it and then, at the same time, go out and be a cheerleader for it.
Jon

As you said, it's a done deal and has the overwhelming support of the current EC.

I think the game changes a bit for someone in a key leadership roll in AMA, though. One can either work to support the program, regardless of whether he or she personally thinks it will work, or one can opt out of any support or even work to undermine it. I think the next EVP is obligated to try to make the program successful, given the overall position of the EC. That doesn't mean he or she can't work behind the scenes (in a constructive manner) to improve or otherwise change the program to make it better.

Given that the program exists, and the level of support it has within AMA leadership, ask yourself which is better for the AMA: an EVP who will try to make the program work, or an EVP who at best will ignore the program or at worst actively try to undermine it? Given the tenor of his comments on this board concerning PPP, IMO Horrace falls strongly in the latter position. The new EVP position after the bylaws change is essentially charged with doing what the EC and President assigns him or her to do. Do you see Horrace as being someone who will work to promote PPP if asked to do so by the EC or DM? Effectively?

I'm not saying that one has to think PPP is motherhood and apple pie to be qualified to serve on the EC. What I am saying is that person should be able to (FOR NOW) publicly support the program, and privately, within the EC, work to change or make it better. IMO Horrace can't and won't do that.

Now, 2-3 years down the road, if the program has not had the effect the EC thinks it will, it's a whole 'nother ballgame.

_____________________________

Bob Mitchell AMA 903015
H9 Alpha 60/Evolution 61NT, Sig 4* 60/OS 75AX, H9 95" Skylane/OS 160 FX, Futaba 7C 2.4GHz

(in reply to F106A)

Post #: 12

RE: Horrace Cain vs Mark Smith - 9/10/2008 11:12:39 PM

kid chuckles

Posts: 790
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Granbury, TX, USA
Status: offline

Got carried away. Red you have alot of room to talk. A moderator from RCU that will send E-Mails to members stating how a only two yr. member doesn't have the right to question anything AMA. And how toy airplane flyers are incapable of understanding the AMA. And what did Mark really say nothing but he will mill it around

Feels Confident, Call Toll Free, Will be directed, Knowledable Staff . In other words NOTHING.

This was nothing more than you thought you had something to make Hoss look bad and really it just makes you look even worse. Low low low but par.

< Message edited by kid chuckles -- 9/11/2008 3:13:29 AM >

(in reply to Bob Mitchell)