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Adding Counters to an SSE - 10/12/2008 2:36 AM   
SeamusG



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From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline 		I inherited a partially built SSE. As I have a NIB SSE kit I am making mods to this plane and see how they work out before building my own.

Well, the elevator and rudder had been completed (so to speak). To add counters to both I simply cut the balsa off the tips of the horizontal stab and fin and added the pieces to the tips of the elevators and rudder. Simple enough. But wait ...

The laser cut balsa provided by SIG is incredibly light weight. With this wood added as unsupported counters I thought that they just might break off. Well, in the course of cutting hinge slots, filling imperfections and sanding the new "counters" have broken off several times. I can't imagine how they will survive typical minor hanger rash and the forces of flight.

So, the question to you hotshot builders that have successfully added counters (I've read your threads), how did you reinforce these things?

TIA for your unguarded comments



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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 10/12/2008 8:11 AM  1 votes
Live Wire


 

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Status: online 		Pin them on with small dowels or tooth picks
Make sure you run the grain of the wood length wise at the tips

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 10/12/2008 6:36 PM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		Thanks Larry,

I've got 1/8" dowel and round tooth picks. Gonna test my precision drilling technique. I was also considering constructing truss-type counters using somewhat denser balsa. I've got some 1" x 1/4 for the leading and trailing edges with 1/4 x 1/4 side rails and 1/8 x 1/4 cross structure. Hey, it's Sunday and the weathers stinks (for flying). So it's off to the dungeon ...

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 10/12/2008 9:06 PM  1 votes
Live Wire


 

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A piece of brass tubing, wood for a shime and you can make your self a guide for drilling holes and also good for easy hinges.


I will bet a lot of people don't even no what you are talking about

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 10/13/2008 2:18 AM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		Well, it's only the ones that DO know what I'm talking about that count.

Thanks for the brass tubing drill idea. I've used that technique for drilling holes for control rods thru lite ply formers (long brass tube).

Cheers (hope the Broncos figure it out this afternoon BEFORE the end of the game today ) ...

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 12:05 AM   
twn



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Status: offline 		I have a sse with the mods you are talking of doing. My personal opinion is if you are going to enlarge the elevators don’t. I added only 3/8" and with my low rates on I can fly level and go vertical with an almost perfect 90 degree with VERY little throw. The original size is all that is needed so If you add counter balancers be sure to try to keep the same surface area as before.

Built your tail feathers ENTIRELY out of firm straight balsa sticks like a funtana in fact shape them exactly like a funtana and add carbon fiber full width to strengthen the stab and remove the flying wires. Install your servos in the tail if you can. I added an inch to the rudder and cut the fin in half to get a bigger counter balancer that was well worth it. Be careful around the elevators not to go to big...

With this plane get it as light as you can. And a pumped saito 82 is the best engine if you have one. Be sure to move the firewall back 1.5-2” with the saito or she won’t flat spin nicely. If you use the saito toss the aluminum gear and get some light fiber gear like the dubro ones and drill some holes to lighten them. Use ultra light foam wheels too.

If you are using analog servos build/use yourself a aaa nimh pack to save weight.

Remember built this light. Remove where ever you can. You would be SHOCKED to see how thin I dremmeld my tail fuselage section…

I went with 225mg (metal gear) on the ailerons, 5245 on the elevator & 625 pull pull on rudder. The mighty mini servos are THE BEST servos for this plane but a good strong 80 oz servo for the rudder is best especially if you hit your rudder hard like I do. I went with the 5245 on the elevator becase (1) I had it handy & (2) it is more reliable then a 225mg. But I bet a 225 mg would be fine if you don't go big on the elevator like I did


< Message edited by twn -- 11/11/2008 12:11 AM >

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 4:26 AM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		Tom - thanks for your input. I'll use the input on my next SSE (yea, I have a kit on the shelf). I have already finished the 1st SSE and maidened it last week. I set the controls to SIG's recommendations using the old radio D/R toggle. IMHO is has ridiculous controls in LOW rate let alone with HI activated. It puts a really, really big smile on my face.

Cheers,

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 5:04 AM   
Deadeye



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Status: offline 		I built my counters, and cut my own lightening holes. The covering gives the strength you are looking for. I did not reinforce or pin my counters. This one pictured only has about 20 or 30 flights on it, but my other one has over 200, and they are holding up fine. I also added chord to both rudder and elevator.

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 5:20 AM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		DE - just to be clear, by adding chord you mean increasing the distance between the leading & trailing edge of the rudder & elevator?

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 5:22 AM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		btw - this is what mine looks like - just wanted to make it really visible

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 5:23 AM   
Deadeye



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Status: offline 		That is what I mean. I think it was around 1/2 inch to an inch. Have you got a power plant picked out yet?

EDIT: Nevermind, I didn't see that you posted two in a row. Looks good, and should be easy to see!

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 5:25 AM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		DE - just noticed that it "appears" that the hinge line between the fin & rudder is not vertical. What is the advantage?

< Message edited by SeamusG -- 11/11/2008 5:38 AM >

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 5:27 AM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		I have an OS 46 AX installed. Initially I used a locally popular 12.25x3.75 APC prop. I switched to an 11x6W to see how it played out. Since I'm having fuel problems resulting in dead sticks I can't give a thumbs up or down either way.

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 5:35 AM   
Deadeye



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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeamusG

DE - just noticed that it "appears" that the hinge line between the fin & rudder in not vertical. What is the advantage?


I'm not sure what you mean. My rudder hinge line is at 90 degrees to the thrust line. However, I did scoot the entire elevator/stab forward a bit for CG (too much trouble, wouldn't do it again), as you can see the hinge line for the rudder is forward of the elevator.

Try a 14X4 APC on that 46 AX (great combo on my 46 FX). You might get her to hover with that prop.

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 5:55 AM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		Emmm, I'll take your word for it

I'll definitely give the 14x4 APC a shot.

I've got a trim ?. To get it to fly straight-n-level at mid throttle (about 9500 - full throttle is 11,900) I need 9 clicks of up elevator. Inverted horizontal flight takes very little elevator to hold it. At 0 clicks of trim the elevator is in the same plane as the stab (as close as my straight edge and clevis adjustment can get it). The balance point is at 3 1/2" behind the LE (the middle of the main spar). I has just barely a nose down attitude on my home made balance device. As I did not assemble the fuse or wings (a friend picked the plane up at auction for $25 and he gave it to me for installing some software on his laptop) I have no clue as accuracy of the build. Am I looking at messing with thrust issues? I hate to move the battery pack farther forward as the off throttle glide slope is pretty nice.

thanks in advance for your help ...

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 6:05 AM   
Deadeye



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Status: offline 		Sounds like a CG issue. Try moving the battery BACK, not forward. Go in 1/4 inch CG increments. My elevator is right in line with the stab, and inverted takes very little back pressure to keep level.

If that doesn't help, try shimming the bottom two mount holes of the engine mount with some washers or thin plywood.

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 7:13 AM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		I'll give your CG suggestion a shot. I have a velcro strip along the top of the tank (and a tank hatch). I can move battery pack back incrementally with very little effort.

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 7:36 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeamusG

(hope the Broncos figure it out this afternoon BEFORE the end of the game today ) ...


Well...they didn't and never will. Go Chargers!

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 5:36 PM   
h@h racing


 

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/11/2008 7:29 PM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		h&h - my mods are very similar to yours with the exception of the method you used to extend the rudder chord length. The modeler that original pinned up the tail components was afraid of using glue. They fell apart at the most inappropriate time until I recognized this "approach" and re-glued all joints

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/12/2008 1:56 AM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		I'm in my natural state now - confused.

Today's goal at the field: adjust the CG with the objective of removing 13 clicks of down elevator to maintain straight-n-level flight at 3/4 throttle.

Flight 1: asis - just to reinforce how it behaves today - needs 13 clicks to maintain snl
Flight 2: moved battery pack back 1/2" (on top of tank as far back as possible) - needs 13 clicks
Flight 3: moved battery pack back to mount vertically on the rear of the tank - needs 13 clicks
Flight 4: added 1/2 oz weight 12" behind CG - needs 13 clicks
Flight 5: added 1/2 oz weight 12" behind CG - needs 12 clicks
Flight 6: added 1/2 oz weight 12" behind CG - needs 12 clicks
Flight 7: no change just wanted to fly again

The main change in behavior was in its slow speed handling. Slow, smooth 3-point landings are a no-brainer. Up wind approaches, down wind approaches, dead stick - all much easier to manage as the CG moved back. I will test the CG on the bench this evening to determine where it actually is.

Also, picked up a 14x4W APC this afternoon. Next flying day I'll test it out. Just wanted to make sure that I can pull a nice 3-point flair landing to save the prop. . Yea, I know, the 14" APC is heavier and I will need to tweek the weight a bit.

I really, really, really like this plane even if it needs 12 clicks of up elevator to fly level.

Thanks for the pointers folks!

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/12/2008 2:16 AM   
Rcpilot


 

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Status: offline 		You need down thrust on the engine.

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/12/2008 2:47 AM   
SeamusG



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< Message edited by SeamusG -- 11/12/2008 5:34 AM >

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/12/2008 4:05 AM   
mesaflyer


 

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Status: offline 		SeamusG,
I would really appreciate it if you would please post your findings/results. The SSE is my next kit to build. I've been reading as many threads as I can find on this plane.
Thanks

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RE: Adding Counters to an SSE - 11/12/2008 5:36 AM   
SeamusG



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Status: offline 		My CG is 3 5/8" from the leading edge. This is 1/8" farther back than the SIG starting point.

I will be adding 1/16" down thrust (washers between both upper motor mounts and the firewall).

Also, I eliminated the added 1.5 oz of lead from the rear cockpit bulkhead by moving the battery (4.6 oz) directly under the wing tube.

Plan to test tomorrow.

Keep ya posted.

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