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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 7/24/2012 4:32 PM   
samparfitt


 

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From: West Chester, OH, USA
Status: offline 		Folding wing conversion from hydraulic to down and lock electric motors.

Pre-testing:
It's important to insure there is no binding in the wing mechanism.
First, I only installed the top pivot brass pin and nothing else so I can insure the fixed wing and moving wing metal parts move freely.
I found some slight binding around the top pivot pin and loosened the locking nut and bolt on the far outside to remove the binding. It only took about a half turn to remove binding, yet the nylon nut will remain secure.
Second, I installed the wings to insure there is no binding (this includes inserting the outer bolt to the front hinges).
I found one wing edge just scraping along one of those outer bolts so I ground off the head of the bolt just a small amount to cure the problem.

Correct battery voltage:
You don't need to over kill on the batteries. I went to battery plus and had them make me a 7 cell 8.4 volts, 1100 ma NICD battery pack.

Motor assembly installation:
(The moving wing section is removed from the fixed wing section via the pivot pin.)
First, I screwed the shaft end onto the locking pin (lower brass pin) insuring that the threads do not protrude past the sides of the opposite side. I then tightened down the set screw to insure the shaft end never moves.
I could then attach the moving wing section to the fixed wing section with the pivot pin.
To secure the screws, I like to use gasket sealer as it prevents vibration of the screws yet allows them to be, easily, removed.
I secured the jack screw end that has the threaded pin with the two metal plates that hold the pin in place. The screws are 4/40 to hold the plates to the moving wing section.
The two screws that hold the threaded pin has to be shorter than the other screws so they don't pinch the jack screw. I'm partial to steel screws over stainless steel so I put a washer on the two screws securing the threaded pin to insure that they don't bind the jack screw.
No adjustments were needed, but if they were, I could rotate the shaft end (after loosening the set screw and insure the threads never go past the surface) to make the adjustments.

Tolerances:
I could now test just the moving wing section (without the outer wings) to insure there is about a 1/32" gap for the motor and threaded pin, that the jack screw is not hitting the end of the moving wing section and the end of the jack screw is flush or just 1/32" below the surface of the threaded pin.

Pivot pin/rotating pin:
With the moving wing in the full UP position, I could now attached the locking cam over the brass rotating pin on the fixed wing section.
While tightening the screw on the upper pivot pin, a small vise is needed to hold the pivot pin.

Finishing touches:
The wire to the motor was secured to the fixed wing section using some aluminum tape.
The CF sleeve on the outer wings need to be checked to insure the motor wire is not being pinched.
I find that I need to bundle the wire connections with some velcro (plus safety clips) to insure they do not fall below the bottom surface of the wing and get pinched when the wings go down.

Final test:
The outer wings are now attached but I tested each wing, individually, so I could insure it was working properly and, then, a full cycle was run using both wings to insure everything is working properly.
The motors are moving some large surfaces and on a windy day I'll try to put the plane into the wind to keep excess stress off the motors.
After running the wings to the down position, I wait about 30 seconds to allow the motors to cool down before retracting the wings to the up position.


Video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2q1D-SXvSw&feature=youtu.be

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< Message edited by samparfitt -- 7/26/2012 9:48 PM >

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 7/24/2012 4:35 PM   
samparfitt


 

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Status: offline 		Continued from previous post:

Cam action (without outer wings) video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8dvDeJRNyQ&feature=youtu.be

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< Message edited by samparfitt -- 7/24/2012 5:44 PM >

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 7/24/2012 11:15 PM   
ram3500-RCU



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Status: offline 		Nice job Sam. Very good explanation of the operation and things to watch for and do.

We found that moving the wings while taxi, even a slight bump in the ground will be enough to stop one on both. A simple recycle of the switch is all it takes to get them moving again. The load safety works very well and I don't see any harm coming to the motors for a long time.

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 7/25/2012 3:07 AM   
Down and Locked


 

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Status: offline 		Nice Job Sam I am going to direct customers to your installation instructions in the future. Thanks for all the help and positive comments that you guys take the time to post for us here at Down and Locked. Mitch

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 7/26/2012 9:39 PM   
samparfitt


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks, guys.

========

Folding wing conversion from hydraulic to down and lock electric motors (cont)

A few extra pointers:

Extension wires:
To keep electrical resistance to a minimum, I used 20 gauge wire and made them just long enough to connect the motor wire to the control unit. I only know of radical RC that sells 20 gauge wire but use a good heavy duty extension (22 gauge, minimum).
http://www.radicalrc.com/shop/

Jack screw to threaded pin and locking pin and cam:
I added some lubriplate white grease to the threads of the jack screw and cam/locking pin area to reduce friction to a minimum.

Bottom of wing:
To insure no binding, make sure there is a gap at the bottom between the outer wing and center wing (the green spot is where I failed to secure the extension wires and one got caught between the two surfaces). Mine was touching a little bit so I elongated the two holes in the wing that secures the wing to the aluminum bar via two bolts: you can fill in the back part of the hole with some epoxy.

Routine check:
When you go to the field, before putting the outer wings onto the folding mechanism, cycle them to insure everything is working properly: ie, smooth operation, no dirt on any parts, all screws are tight, etc.

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/4/2012 4:01 PM   
samparfitt


 

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Status: offline 		Folding wing conversion from hydraulic to down and lock electric motors (cont)

A few more extra pointers:

Maintain the 1/32" gap between the motor housing and threaded pin (in the DOWN position).
While testing, one wing went down but not up: A toggle reversal and no movement or noise.
I reversed the motor connections to the control unit to isolate the problem and the same results so I knew the left assembly unit was the problem.
I noticed no gap between the threaded pin and motor housing unit so I did a few things:
1. Any further turning of the threaded shaft into the locking pin would expose the shaft on the far side of the locking pin and cause binding. Thus, I ground some of the end of the threaded shaft so I could screw the shaft farther into the pivot pin and not protrude out the other side, which gave me the 1/32" gap between the housing unit and threaded rod.
2. I noticed when I tried to only turn the threaded shaft only a half turn, the motor wires sticking out could get pinched on the open side of the moving wing mechanism so I always keep the wires on the closed side of the wing mechanism.
3. After this adjustment, the wing functioned properly so I'm assuming the left wing motor didn't move due to binding against the threaded pin so, for this scenario, it's best to insure this gap is maintained between the motor housing and threaded screw.

Note:
Wing conversion starts at post # 1228.

Next:
The solo prop will be attached and the engine tested.
I'd like to take her to Fond du lac but the new Bates B-26 needs to get a maiden.


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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/5/2012 3:16 PM   
vatechguy3


 

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Status: offline 		hate to ask, but what is the cost for the down and locked wing conversion?

and what about the landing gear conversion?

thanks
tony

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/5/2012 4:20 PM   
samparfitt


 

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Status: offline 		Tony,
The wing conversion is $400 with motor assemblies and control unit.
I like it over the hydraulic:
1. no oil to spill
2. the air pressure needed in the accumulator for the hydraulic seemed to be very sensitive: to much air pressure and the pump motor would keep 'kicking on' causing possible burnout, too little pressure and the wings wouldn't move.
3. with hydraulic, a leak could allow the wings to fold in the air whereas the jack screw mechanism, if power is lost, the jack screw can't move by itself.
A few years ago (before DandL), I was standing behind a pilot that lost his F4U due to one wing folding (a real sphincter tightener!).
In my opinion, the jack screw would not have allowed this to happen.

When I purchase parts for an airplane, I consider percentages: 400 bucks on an expensive plane, this size, is small.

You'll have to contact DandL for retracts:
http://www.downandlocked.com/

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/5/2012 11:32 PM   
samparfitt


 

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Status: offline 		Engine/prop.

I'm using a solo 3-blade 32" paddle blade prop on the Moki 250.
Scott and Gary were getting around 3600 rpm's on their moki's with a solo prop and I wanted the same 'ballpark' rpm's.
The moki is made for low rpm's with high torque.
Prop pitch adjustment:
After all 12 hub screws are loosened, the cams were rotated with the front dial (I only rotated the dial about a quarter of one digit for fine rpm tuning). I then rotated the blade counter-clockwise to insure the pin in the blade was at it's max location in the cam and then I tightened the two screws directly on each side of the blade. Repeating this step for all three blades, the center two bolts along the outside of the hub were then tightened and lastly, all bolts were re-tightened.
I make sure the adjustable wrench is fully engaged on the front large bolt on all four surfaces of the wrench to prevent 'rounding over' of the bolt edges.
It took me about five adjustments to get the desired rpm's.
My final was 740/3680 rpm's.
Comparing the prop pitch to one of my regular 2-blade props, the solo appears to be about a 14-15 pitch.
The solo prop isn't cheap, but when I consider how many 32" 3-blade props that I might have to buy to get the proper rpm's, the price can get reasonable, very quickly.

While at a flyin, another pilot had the spector telemetry set up on his motor and I was surprised that the gas engine jumps 1000 rpm's when it's 'unloaded' in the air as I was expected 300-400 rpm change. Thus, 4700 rpm's in the air is more than enough to fly the plane.
Also, it seems reasonable to assume that keeping all those push rods and rockers moving as slow as possible has to be good for the engine.
As with all my engines, I use a 50/1 gas/oil mix (2.6 oz per gal). Some engine manuals say less and some more and, rather than having a lot of different gas mixtures in a lot of separate gas cans, I find this ratio has served me well on all my engines for several years (and I go through about 35 gallons a year!).
The top three cylinders were 170 degrees and the bottom two were 140 degrees (temperatures checked about a minute after stopping the engine and max rpm's only run for several seconds).
The temperature difference is to be expected as the lower cylinders run cooler.
The engine starts very easily. Once the fuel line has gas, 3-5 flips and the engine is purring at 700 rpm's.

I'm also happy to say that the electric wing fold mechanism is working great.

Engine test video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBiLgYOeq4M&feature=youtu.be


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< Message edited by samparfitt -- 8/6/2012 5:43 PM >

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/5/2012 11:57 PM   
ram3500-RCU



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Status: offline 		Good stuff Sam. Yes, the ideal RPM for a Moki 250 equipped with a Solo prop is 3600-3800 (or about a 17" pitch on the 32" blades). This keeps the RPMs in the optimal power range with a very safe margin below the 6000 max RPM of the engine and prop. With this setting, 1/2 throttle or less will be all you need for most of your flight. A 50oz tank will give you a 15 minute flight with plenty of reserve.

The gear conversion is $500 plus another $150 if the D&L sequencer is added. Once you have the hand held programer, you don't need to buy it again. It works with all D&L gear. So the $150 is a one time expense. The sequencer allows you to coordinate your gear doors with the gear.

I saw several planes damaged at Top Gun this year due to gear problems. Our two planes had D&L electric gear and worked flawlessly, as well as did all the other planes equipped with there conversions. I think there were at least 8 planes this year with D&L conversions, plus all the jets with BVM gear (also D&L).

I agree with Sam that with these expensive scale planes, the extra money for the conversions is a small price to pay for the reliability and safety to your plane's systems.

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/6/2012 11:51 AM   
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Status: offline 		yeah i think that is true with anything.
just trying to get an idea of the cost of building this plane.
i fly 40% carden kits now, so i'm looking into a 50cc corsair right now, with plans to build one of these after i get proficient with a smaller corsair.
looking at the ESM or the new TF arf.

tony

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/7/2012 4:20 AM   
ram3500-RCU



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quote:

ORIGINAL: vatechguy3

yeah i think that is true with anything.
just trying to get an idea of the cost of building this plane.
i fly 40% carden kits now, so i'm looking into a 50cc corsair right now, with plans to build one of these after i get proficient with a smaller corsair.
looking at the ESM or the new TF arf.

tony

Tony, Figure $10,000 - $12,000 with the Moki, if you buy everything new. It is a very big investment, but you will have perhaps the best version of the Corsair to date.

Sounds like the size of this Corsair will be nothing new for you Tony. What changes with this type is the wing loading. This plane will be much heavier than even your larger aerobatic planes. I have built two so far (working on the third) with all up weights of 63lbs and and much more detailed version at about 70lbs. Even at 70 lbs, this plane flies great. It "feels" much lighter in the air with the Moki 250 up front.

Also, I want to add that IMO, having flown several smaller Corsairs, that this 110" version is easier to fly than most smaller ones. Also, it does NOT display the Corsair tail wag that smaller versions have. One big difference though is the landing procedure. you MUST fly these heavy war birds to the ground, vs stalling them on, like you do your Carden. other than that, they fly like a dream.

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/7/2012 12:11 PM   
vatechguy3


 

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Status: offline 		yeah, the heavier wing loading and flying through the landing are things i expect to be different.
thats why i want to get a 50cc and fly it for awhile to get use to the differences.

the 10-12k estimate you gave isn't that much more than one of my 40%s with a da200 up front!

everyone seems to use the 5 cylinder moki 250, is there a similar sized gas engine with 7 or 9 cylinders??

tony

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/7/2012 3:29 PM   
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Status: offline 		Moki is releasing a 7 cylinder 250 soon

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/7/2012 10:17 PM   
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Status: offline 		I have decided to stop the build of my Corsair and go with the conversion from Hydraulic to Electrical folding wings. I was never too convinced with the system and now after seeing the video that have been published, I think that the electrical conversion is the way to go.

Do downandlocked also make conversions for landing gear ?

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/7/2012 10:21 PM   
mikefrench1


 

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Status: offline 		I believe they do the landing gear also. I sold my Corsair after I broke my back 2 years ago. I plan to get a new one soon and go electric on wing s and landing gear.

Mike

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/7/2012 10:31 PM   
panhandler


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gonzalo38

I have decided to stop the build of my Corsair and go with the conversion from Hydraulic to Electrical folding wings. I was never too convinced with the system and now after seeing the video that have been published, I think that the electrical conversion is the way to go.

Do downandlocked also make conversions for landing gear ?



A very good decision Gonzalo38. Mitch and Ron are the best in the bussiness IMO . I  converted my landing gear to DL system for my P-38  . Great guys to work with .
http://www.downandlocked.com/


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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/7/2012 10:43 PM   
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Status: offline 		Already made contact with Mitch...... he was very fast to respond. Now I'm just trying to find out which is the easiest way for me to send the parts to the US.

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/8/2012 4:08 AM   
ram3500-RCU



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Status: offline 		You builders will not be disappointed going electric on this bird, and Sam has done a wonderful job detailing the conversions from the user's end.

Here is a video of the Comp ARF Corsair my brother and I built for this years Top Gun. It was the very first one in the world to have the Down And Locked conversions of the wings, landing gear, and also sports a Down and Locked driven canopy. This is the plane that started it all.

We had two planes at Top Gun, both with Down and Locked gear.

We were NOT among the teams with gear issues this year, and our folding wings worked flawlessly even without any redundant locking system.

Notice how realistic the gear operates. We consistently scored 10s on the electric gear.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onOX3fJKZtw&feature=em-

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/8/2012 1:59 PM   
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Status: offline 		Beautiful! Nice flying too!

It's rare to see a video like that with a Moki and NOT hear the sound. The field must have been really busy that day as I did hear other planes including a turbine.

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/9/2012 12:04 AM   
vatechguy3


 

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Status: offline 		has anyone tried the new evolution 7 cylinder 260 or the new moki 7 cylinder 250??

the evolution is much cheaper?!?!

tony

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 8/9/2012 2:44 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wind junkie

Beautiful! Nice flying too!

It's rare to see a video like that with a Moki and NOT hear the sound. The field must have been really busy that day as I did hear other planes including a turbine.

Thanks you. Yes, it was a practice day at Top Gun. Very busy field.

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 10/8/2012 12:10 PM   
samparfitt


 

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Status: offline 		Got my flights in:

My buddies Scott and Merlyn helped and spotted for me.
Since Scott has moki's in all his planes, I let him fly her, first, to check trim, etc.
He had me change the expo to 40-50% from my usual 30%: this worked nice as it gave me more scale turns. I also watched his throttle settings for each phase of the flight.

Then it was my turn.
I lowered and insured the wings were locked before starting the plane. The down and lock electric conversion setup worked perfectly. My wings to the down position will always be done in the pits so I can, manually, insure they are locked.
Once the gas lines have fuel, the Moki 250 'pops' quickly on choke and then starts up easily, once the choke is removed. Using a solo 32" 3-blade paddle type blades, I got 800/3680 RPM's on the ground using a 50:1 oil mixture. After taxing back and turning off the engine, I got around 210 degrees on the upper cylinders and around 180 on the bottom cylinders.

Taxi/take off/flying:
This plane is a real pleasure to fly: it takes off perfectly straight, the tail first lifts up and the fuse goes down the runway just on the mains in the horizontal position. She rolled for about 400' and then did a nice scale, low angle climb. I used full throttle after lift off until after I made the 180 turn along the back side and then went to about 50% throttle.
Over the runway, I usually used about 30-40% throttle and about 60% for the turns and about 50% along the back side.
The combination of radial and prop are ideal for this plane. The flying pleasure goes to a whole new level that I've never experienced with a model plane. It's about as close as I'll ever get to feeling like I'm flying a full size warbird. At air shows, the warbirds fly so slow, they look like they would fall out of the sky and this plane replicates the look. The Moki 250 like lots of tork and the near scale diameter of the prop with about a 14-16 pitch, allows the plane to fly at a very scale speed (it looks like you can almost count the blades as they turn).

Landing/taxi back:
For landing, I put the gear down over the runway for the gear pass; on the back side, full flaps were then applied and, once over the runway, the F4U's fuse keeps a nice horizontal angle, the mains kiss the runway, she bleeds off speed and eventually, the tail touches. After stopping, I opened the canopy and engaged the folding wings to go up while taxing back to the pits. What a great feeling to fly this plane.
I must of enjoyed the flights: later, another pilot came up to me and said he's never seen such a big smile on a pilot while he was flying his plane!
Unfortunately, I forgot to get any videos (or even pictures)!

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< Message edited by samparfitt -- 10/11/2012 8:07 PM >

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G. Samuel Parfitt

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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 10/8/2012 2:43 PM   
vfrank59



Posts: 130
Score: 100
Joined: 12/15/2005
Last Login: 5/19/2013
From: buckeye, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Congrats, on the successful flight.. Thanks for the flight report also.
I know it was tough to remember photos and video. I barely remembered to get photos myself. Luckily, I had some help and the guy took video for me. I had a good warbird pilot fly my maiden. Good thing too, I was calm on the takeoff roll, then as she flew I started shaking like a cold newborn. I chose not to even take the controls for the first flight!!! The corsair and Moki combo are the perfect match of flight and sound. I too, am gong to convert to down and locked wing and gear conversion.
Great job and have fun with it.
Vern


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RE: COMP ARF 110 - 10/8/2012 2:54 PM   
glazier808



Posts: 3428
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Last Login: 5/22/2013
From: Honolulu, HI, USA
Status: offline 		WTG Sam!

Casey

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Fliteskin, Sierra, Nelson Hobby, MICKO aircraft, Getstencils, Holman Plans, VicRC, Castle Creations, Addicted to Luft

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