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FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/1/2008 10:39 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		The BAe Hawk is another member to the Styrofoam EDF jet model series from FlyFly Hobby. These models are distributed overseas by Hobby88.com or here in the U.S. by Electric Jet Factory EJF.com.

If you are not familiar with FlyFly Hobby foam jet models, they are uniquely engineered designs that are made from EPS foam. The large jets are designed for 90mm EDFs and fit together like a precision 3D puzzle piece. They come with the ducted fan unit and fixed landing gear. They can be hand-launched over grass or fitted with optional retracts.

The BAe Hawk is powered by a single 92mm ducted fan unit that uses a B36-class 1000w brushless motor. The kit comes with the scale aluminum suspension landing gear and the fuselage is separated by 4 pieces for easy shipping. The Hawk is designed for both fixed and retractable gear. The fuselage has enough room for high capacity battery packs for longer run time and higher air speed.

Specifications:
  • Wingspan: 1365mm (53.5")
  • Length: 1465mm
  • Wing Area: 29dm sq.
  • Height: 535mm
  • Airfoil: RG-14
  • Weight: 730g (body)
  • Flying weight: 2430g (with air retract landing gear)
  • Ducted Fan Unit: 92mm (included)

Requires:
  • Motor: 1600 - 1800kv (Shaft dia 5mm)
  • ESC: 60A w/BEC
  • Battery: Li-Po, 18.5v-22.2v(5 - 6 cells), 3600mAh, 20C
  • Radio: 4-5 channel
  • Servo: Micro servo (8g) x 5, torque > 2.2kg
  • Optional air retract available


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< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 11/3/2008 12:27 PM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/1/2008 10:47 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		The large box is filled with big foam parts and support pieces like a ducted fan, canopy, landing gear, and plenty of precision cut plywood.

For as well designed as this model is, little thought has gone into packaging. Fortunately, the minor dings in the soft EPS foam are easily glued or repainted. A nice decal sheet is included but the manual reads more like a series of break-out drawings than a step-by-step assembly list.

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< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 11/3/2008 12:29 PM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/1/2008 11:36 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		A closer look at the 4-piece fuselage reveals the 3D-like puzzle fit. The pieces fit together extremely well. Aside from the delicate EPS foam and outdated packaging, the rest of the design is well engineered.

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/2/2008 12:39 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		My Hawk will be powered by the following components. The AMMO 36-56-1800 motor is $20 less than the Typhoon EDF-600-32 motor and has a higher Kv for greater speed. The FlightPower ESC can be hammered hard even in heli applications up to 80-amps and doesn't need a separate BEC for up to a 6s Lipo.



The 5-cell FlightPower pack weighs 21oz compared to the 18oz 6-cell pack so they are close in weight. The higher capacity 5-cell pack will provide longer flights but not fly as fast as the 6-cell pack.

The AMMO motor mounted easily using the 5mm adapter that comes with the Hawk. Note that the motor wires are extended to 23" lengths. This allows the ESC to enter the battery compartment under the canopy for easy access. I tested the completed assembly before mounting it in the fuselage. It ran very smooth with almost no vibration.



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< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 12/31/2008 4:29 PM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/4/2008 1:21 AM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		The fuselage is essentially pre-assembled inside before gluing the two halves together. The ducted fan unit and pre-assembled exhaust tube fit like a glove inside the fuselage.

My Hawk is using the new Hitec HS-5065MG Digital Programmable servos. This high-performance micro servo features Hitecs digital, programmable circut for incredible resolution, centering and holding torque. It also features metal gears, a top-ball bearing, and 31 ounces/inches of torque with a quick transit time of 0.11 sec at 6 volts.

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/6/2008 12:04 AM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		The 4-piece fuselage was glued together in two stages using 20-minute epoxy from Bob Smith Industries. The epoxy is thin and can be brushed on with a soft piece of foam or disposable brush. Since the epoxy takes 20 minutes to just start setting, it allows you plenty of time to wipe off any excess after pressing the fuselage halves together. I used cloth strips to hold things together overnight as the epoxy takes 8 hours to dry.

I also use this epoxy to "paint" a clear protective coat on areas that may see more impact like the nose, fuselage bottom, and leading edges of the wing and fins. The rest of the plane will get a coat of clear gloss Minwax Polycrylic. This water-based spray dries fast without fumes and provides durable protection on foam models.

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/6/2008 10:29 AM   
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Status: offline 		pssssst Hey Greg. Before you try to fly it...
Rotor is upside down.
/Jyri

< Message edited by jjantti -- 11/6/2008 10:31 AM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/6/2008 10:47 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		Hi Jyri,

Thank you for joining RC Universe to point this out. It was something I forgot to mention when I posted the photos above.

You are correct that the rotor is backwards when using the HET motor. However, when using the AMMO motor that has a shorter shaft length, you need to flip the rotor. This is needed because it hits the duct centering. What makes this possible is that the rotor is symmetrical and the motor spins in the same direction so it still works with the air guides in the duct.

My Hawk has already flown several times but I have not made the videos yet using 5-cell and 6-cell packs.

Regards.

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/6/2008 10:55 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		Before installing the canopy top, I mounted the Red R/C Model Pilot #8 from Nitro Planes. These pre-painted model airplane pilots are designed for CMP's range of ARFs and added a nice look to my Hawk.

Instead of using the manual suggestion for a screw to hold the front of the canopy in place, I glued a spare piece of plywood to act as a tongue which simply gets inserted into the foam channel of the fuselage for a cleaner look.

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< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 11/8/2008 11:00 PM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/7/2008 2:06 PM   
jjantti


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the warm welcome.

Wow, this kind of blade symmetry is new to me.
I had that fan on my hands when bought the FF F86 but sold it as soon as I got it. I newer took it off the bag...
I'm using Midifans. It sure has blade asymmetry. Have been running it for years and have no reasons to try replace it.

Have you compared the power vs. thrust on both ways of the rotor? I'm still not convinced it will work perfectly that way.
Difference must be small but the concave blade root should ideally rotate on one way only I think.

At least this is what I have been told about lectures concerning gas turbines.
Blade root might benefit having just concave shape since it works more on impulse forces. Blade tip has more rotational speed acts more like a standard prop.
I must be kind of obsessional about the efficiency since I think things like that
I have no intentions to argue but I'm just curious.
/Jyri

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/8/2008 11:23 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		Jyri,

Most rotors are not symmetrical so they can't be reversed but the FlyFly rotor is symmetrical so it works. What our friend from Australia is missing is that it still spins in the same direction so the stators inside the housing remain efficient. Try not to confuse turbine requirements with EDF requirements because they often differ. Most notably is the air intake requirement which is why EDF conversions of turbine-powered jets has not taken off.

Many people have their favorite ways to do things and sometimes harp on maximum efficiency but there are often many solutions. The ducted fan that comes with the FlyFly models is very usable and there is no need to replace it. Notice the promotion at the end of the post for Extreme RC in Australia.

Regards.

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/8/2008 11:27 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		The tail assembly was easy and straightforward. I did, however, replace the control rods that came with the kit with thicker ones and used a simple L-bend at the horn end so it could not slip out of adjustment.

The key here is to make sure that the tail piece swings freely and that the screw in the holding collar is properly positioned for a full swing.

Note that I added some black trim tape to the tip of the exhaust tube for a better look.

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< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 11/8/2008 11:32 PM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/9/2008 11:22 AM   
whissel_blowa


 

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Status: offline 		Not promotion Greg, purely a link to avoid the usual questions of "what would you know" etc. I dont promote or sell into the US (and thats 95% of your readers right there) so that sorta says it all doesnt it

The FlyFly rotor is not assymetrical, its close but not exactly the same and the blades have a definite chord. It is also inefficient, and the quality is very hit and miss, most are bored off centre and it is very difficult for the average user to get them balanced and running smoothly enough to be reliable. I have seen plenty of them running very badly, they put load on the motor bearings and fatigue the housing, throwing a blade is not uncommon.

The Wemotec Midifan PRO rotor is just so much better, its not expensive, can be bought from many dealers in the US, drops straight into the flyfly housing as its a copy of the wemo housing, and it comes factory balanced, success rate for the average user is much higher.

I dont think I am harping on about anything, to me the fan is a no brainer when the cost is so reasonable.
http://www.ejf.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=82_79&products_id=538

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/9/2008 3:15 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		Understood. I certainly agree with you that the quality issue may be hit or miss. I also agree with you that there are more efficient DFs and available upgrades. Perhaps I was lucky on my setup that has virtually no vibrations. However, I have had other DFs that throw rotors for no apparent reason and believe that proper mounting of the collet adapter is very important.

Your statement on the FlightTech 60A ESC is a matter of preference rather than fact. Using 5 or 6 cells has little effect on the switch-mode 3-amp rating. I would recommend to measure the load and determine if it is higher than the rated 3-amps on the internal BEC. If so, I would then use an external BEC with higher rating like you are doing. My Hawk only uses 4 digital servos with programmable current limiting.

In the competitive Western world, we have a tendency to highlight the best and throw away the rest. Often, what we toss or ignore is not junk.

Let's agree to disagree on the other issues. Since I typically merely document my findings without harsh judgment, I'll eventually post flying photos and videos for others to make their own decisions.

Regards.

< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 11/9/2008 4:26 PM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/9/2008 7:47 PM   
jjantti


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Greg,

I'm familiar with different goals with EDF and turbine world. We want air speed not pressure like those kerosene guys. Good point there.
I'm also familiar to the fact that duct and fan efficiency makes the plane airborne eventually.

[boring story on]
I made tiny(1:17,1) pretty scale F-18C years ago. Begining of the millenia don't recall anymore... It was to be flown with twin GWS EDF50's. It did not.
Intake was too small and had serious turbulence problem. I almost trashed the thing at once.
After a year or something I read more about ducts and other 'need to know' theory.
Built all the ducts again this time for EDF 40's. Everything else was the same(the plane, battery,power, motors).
It sure was no rocket but it flew OK!
[/boring story off]

Somehow I just doubt that designer of the Haoye fan did not know any better. It sure is a copy of something. And Fly Fly is copy of that if not the same rotor ...
The blade root looks for me to be copied from turbine blades IMHO. It has nothing to do with EDF's or prop's for sure. Angle of attack is roughly 80-85 degrees.
I doubt the there is airfoil that work on that environment. And putting it backwards kinda makes it worse in my eyes.

I tried share this 'learn by sweat' knowledge with you to make your hobby easier.
At the same time I know this is hobby and we all have our own ways to do it. We can just buy more power with few bucks and go flying. I get that too.
But anyway we have to get the power transfered into airstream to get our plane move. That was my point.
But please let us know if it works.

/Jyri

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/11/2008 12:40 AM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		The FlightPower 60A ESC is not made by Hobby Wing and the programming is proprietary to FlightPower. However, the switch-mode BEC may be the same chip since most places use common integrated circuits. There is no percentage to the "very inefficient" specification for the 6s input voltage. Since switching regulators are normally very efficient, it doesn't much matter if the efficiency drops on a 3-amp output when it is fed by a large LiPo pack. Remember that the servo current demands are very burst and not continuous. When using brushless motor and Lithium packs, a drop in efficiency merely means a slightly higher current draw or slightly shorter flight. The performance level will be very similar.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The Hawk wing halves and custom plywood supports were assembled using 5-minute epoxy. The only place I used the glue that came with the kit was to secure the bottom panels. It was spread liberally along all the seams and let to dry overnight. Note that the servo lead and extension is routed through a shallow channel that you need to cut into the foam.

I replaced the thin controls that were supplied with the kit with slightly thicker ones. The L-bend at the control horn is secured with a small piece of shrink tubing and CA.

The one-piece wing was both strong and light. When not using landing gear, the wheel wells make a perfect spot to hand-launch the Hawk.



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< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 11/11/2008 12:47 AM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/11/2008 5:11 AM   
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Status: offline 		Fair enough, just like the APL factory in Malaysia never assembled FP packs, and the cells never came from Enerland, then the factory was 50% owned by FP, then it was everyone else got the cells FP rejected...

Sorry if I sound cynical but the FP ESC looks EXACTLY like a HW60A Pentium, the board is the same shape, heatsink the same, label the same, silicon wire is the same, and according to HW engineers the switchmode BEC is not very efficient when running over 22v and they do not recommend using it when 6 cell packs are connected. I realise a switchmode supply is far more efficient and able to cope with loads easily compared to good old linear M7805 regulators, but there has to be a design parameter to the chip as well right? Maybe this is what the engineers are getting at...

Servo loads are hard to guess, best to log them and be sure, especially with digitals where their holding current can be 4 times as high as their normal operating current, and most of these large jets have quite a lot of load on the servos even in general flight.

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/12/2008 12:32 AM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		Before installing the wing, the aileron servo leads are connected to the Y-harness and lay flat in the wing top channel so they don't interfere. The wing is self-aligning along the chord on both the leading and trailing edges. It is held secure by two machine screws. Overall, this was a well thought out design technique using laser-cut ply pieces to strengthen key areas of the mating foam sections.

Note that the black foam piece covering the unused openings is cut from the common flooring that look like big puzzle pieces. The foam weighs practically nothing but is durable and shock absorbent.

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< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 11/13/2008 10:29 PM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/12/2008 11:18 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		I've had some PMs on the Hitec programmable servos so I'll post a bit more about the programmer.

The Hitec HFP-20 Digital Servo Programmer/Tester allows you to get the most out of Hitec’s new G2 programmable digital servos. The programmer allows users to perfectly match servos in ganged applications or customize several other parameters such as dead band, direction, speed reduction, endpoints and failsafe. The HFP-20 is required to program the overload protection features in the new HS-79XX and 50XX servos along with the standard/high resolution setting in the HS-79XX series. The HFP-20 is backwards compatible and works with all Hitec Digital Servos.

The programmer contains its own internal 4.8v rechargeable battery to power the test and programming functions. The re-charging port is located on the side and designed to use a standard overnight wall charger like the ones used for receiver batteries.

Some of the servo tests are to measure receiver pulse to the servo, measure the voltage supplied to the servo from the receiver, automatic servo movement tests for break-in cycling, and manual servo movement testing.

Programmable Features Include:

  • Reset to factory default
  • End and center points
  • Direction of Rotation
  • Dead Band Width
  • Failsafe Point
  • Speed (reduction only)
  • Overload Protection (G2 servos only)
  • Resolution Mode Setting


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< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 11/12/2008 11:28 PM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/13/2008 10:25 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		Since the EPS foam on the Hawk is very delicate, you can protect the finish with a combination of Bob Smith Industries 20 minute epoxy (that is brushed on) and Minwax Polycrylic Water-based clear spray paint. You can see the shine of the bottom fuselage that was brushed with the thin epoxy. It takes 20 minutes to even start setting and overnight to fully dry so you have plenty of time to "paint" it on with a disposable brush. The leading edges of the wing and stabilzers were also brushed with 20-minute epoxy as was the front two duct openings and nose tip.

To reduce weight, most of the plane that doesn't come in contact with the ground is sprayed with the Minwax Polycrylic Clear Gloss. Less protection but lighter as it's all a trade-off. I estimate that I added 3oz in weight to help protect my Hawk finish.

The Hawk comes with some nice custom plastics that you cut out and glue in place. The aileron servo arms and control rods are protected by plastic covers which will help on my belly landings.

You can see more of the black foam pieces that cover the unused openings. The common foam flooring, that looks like big puzzle pieces, can be purchased in many colors at most home improvement stores. The foam weighs practically nothing but is durable and shock absorbent.

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/15/2008 4:12 PM   
Greg Covey



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Status: offline 		More of the Hawk plastics can be seen in this topside photo. By using a black marker, you can give the vents an opened look.

The inside of the fuselage front can look very clean by routing the receiver and wires along the side away from the ESC noise. My receiver ended up just forward of the battery pack. I used some Velcro strips to hold them in place or easily remove them, if needed.

There is plenty of room for my FlightPower 30C 5s and 6s packs. The model balanced well being slightly nose heavy. The battery to ESC connection is easy to make due to the quick canopy release so I removed the On/Off switch and soldered the wires together.

Time for some power measurements...

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 11/16/2008 7:50 PM   
Greg Covey



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From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		My FlyFly BAe Hawk was Ready-To-Fly at 83oz (or 5.2lbs) with battery pack. The plane without a pack weighed 62oz.

I made some power measurements with 3 different packs. The newest pack was my 30C, 6s, 3200mAh pack with match cells.
  • FlightPower EVO25 5s 5000mAh pack (23oz) 810w at 49amps
  • FlightPower EVO30 5s 4500mAh pack (21oz) 775w at 47amps
  • FlightPower EVO30 6s 3200mAh pack (18oz) 1200w at 64amps


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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 12/14/2008 11:58 PM   
Greg Covey



Posts: 4873
Score: 104
Joined: 5/24/2003
Last Login: 3/17/2010
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		We had an opportunity to test fly the Hawk this weekend in some pretty harsh conditions. The cold winds gusted from 15-25mph but didn't seem to phase the Hawk on either a 5s or 6s LiPo pack. This plane is an impressive flyer and can easily be hand-launched. I look forward to flying it in more favorable conditions next summer.

FlyFly BAe Hawk Flight Video (13meg)

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 12/19/2008 12:32 PM   
Greg Covey



Posts: 4873
Score: 104
Joined: 5/24/2003
Last Login: 3/17/2010
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		I remade the video using better brightness adjustments below. I also received a reply from the FlyFly designer, called Ricky, confirming the symmetrical rotor and blade chord. An excerpt from his reply is below with some spelling corrections. While the FlyFly rotor does work fine, as shown in the video, it can be replaced with a more efficient Midi Fan 90mm Rotor, if desired for $37, until the newer FlyFly rotors become available.

quote:

The current blade are symmetrical design. However, we aware that the 7 blade
may not be the best combination even the high torque motor available in the
market. So we are considering to change the no of blade to 6. Another issue
is the width on the tip of the blade will be modified to a bit narrow. We
have been tested the current draw will be less by this modification.

We are very appreciated to hearing any feedback from customers so we have
more input and improve our products better.


FlyFly BAe Hawk Flight Video (Light Adjusted) (21.5meg)

< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 12/19/2008 1:16 PM >

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RE: FlyFly BAe Hawk 90mm EDF - 7/23/2009 12:11 AM   
Greg Covey



Posts: 4873
Score: 104
Joined: 5/24/2003
Last Login: 3/17/2010
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		We have had plenty of fun flying my BAe Hawk this summer. The only modification I made was to replace the horizontal stabilizer connections to the fuselage with a single piece of 1/8" music wire that runs through a 5/32" brass tube mounted through the fuselage. This single wire enhancement really stiffened up the stabs and makes the Hawk fly very stable at high speeds. The great flying performance can be seen in my new video below.

FlyFly BAe Hawk Summer Flight Video (9meg)

flying photos by "Papa Jeff" Ring

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< Message edited by Greg Covey -- 7/23/2009 12:18 AM >

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