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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 12/31/2008 3:25 PM   
flyinfool1



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It is normal for the gyro to slow the roll rate.
You are telling the aircraft to roll and the gyro is trying to stop it from rolling.
Instead of increasing throws, set up a mix so that as you increase stick deflection the gain is reduced.
This way you will have zero gain at full stick and the normal roll rate.

By doing this this way, if you ever need to turn off the gyro in flight then your controls will still be right and not overly sensitive from too much throw.

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 12/31/2008 4:15 PM   
Kmarks


 

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Status: offline 		Jeff,

With your post, please explain how to set up this decreasing gain for gyro on aileron using a JR 10X.

Thanks

Kevin

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 12/31/2008 4:26 PM   
Ian R


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Craig

thanks for the info, my Aviation Design F16 flys on tailrons, ie just mixed on two servos. Not sure what single or even dual axis gyro will work on this setup

Ian

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 12/31/2008 5:27 PM   
flyinfool1



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Sorry I cant help with a 10X.
I have never even held a 10X let alone tried to program one.
I am sure that a 10X can do it, I just don't know how.
With Futaba it is a very simple P-mix to set up.
You set Aileron as the master and the gain channel as the slave.
You simply set the mix as a V curve so that it is at 100% in the center and zero at the ends.
If your gyro uses the gain to select between heading hold and non heading hold then you will need 50% at the ends and either 100% or 0% in the center.

I hope that helps.

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 12/31/2008 6:21 PM   
DocYates



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Status: offline 		If you use the Futaba 351 gyro, can it be used on the rudder channel or ailerons, as well as have a seperate gain control? I am assuming you could program the gain control using a knob on the radio, so that it could be ajusted in the air, right? I want to try a gyro on one of my large scale planes, and on my T-45, I have seen the guys flying with them, and they make the plane look so much more smoother than without, especially if the wind turbulence is evident.
Thanks for all this info, certainly a worthwhile thread.
Tommy

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/1/2009 1:51 AM   
Craig B.


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Ian,

The futaba GYA 351 or ACT fuzzy pro or ACT fuzzy SMM would work. You may not be able to get the futaba any more so I would go with the Fuzzy pro SMM if I was you (as I will on my other models once I run out of 351's). Any two channel single axis gyro would work with your setup as they don't interfere with the mixes that your radio has programmed. It works on my F16 with flaperons so I see no reason why it wouldn't work on elevons...after all, the gyro does not know or care what surface it is connected to

A dual axis gyro won't work because they are only operate on a single channel per axis and you could not use that on a taileron model as a roll correction given to only one taileron would generate pitch changes that were unwanted, so you just need to go single axis, dual channel gyro (one channel for each taileron servo).

I hope that helps. Give it a go Ian....you won't go back!

Tommy,

Yes it could be used on either rudder/nose wheel or ailerons and is gain adjustable if you have a spare channel. You could use it on nose wheel and rudder and you can reverse the channels individually to suit if you need to. You could use a knob for gain control and you are dead right about the effect they have in the air.....it instantly looks so much more scale. In terms of feel, the model instantly feels twice its size as it is so much more stable.

This gear will have an impact on jets in the future similar to that which it did on helis many years ago. You could still fly a heli without one, but why would you bother trying? I reckon in 10 years, no-one will think of flying a jet without one.

Hope that helps guys.

Craig.




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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/1/2009 8:48 AM   
Ian R


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks Craig

I will go with the ACT, I thought I had read somewhere of a dual axis gyro for tailrons. But roll is the main control I would look for so, ACT it is

Will get one and give it a try on an old prop f3a model first, then into the F16, will keep you informed

Happy New Year

Ian

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 9:59 AM   
jescardin


 

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Status: offline 		Well, first of all Happy New 2009 Year and my best wishes for all of you from Spain. Then, sorry for delay answering but I went to my birth town Seville in South Spain for celebrating the New Year and have returned back home just today.

Regarding my explained set up it is just like is shown on thread #24 (many thanks Duke, you perfectly understood the set up and produced excellent drawings!). Now for the EXPLANATION for those who like to understand things well before trying them -just as I prefer myself-.

Reason for the tilted set up is that for EVERY fixed wing aircraft, ALL roll motion has associated after a given time a DIRECT PROPORTIONAL yaw motion to the same side than the roll. Only aircraft known not showing this tendency are early biplanes till well into WWI which suffered from "adverse yaw" effect but all modern clean designs -whatever propeller o jet driven- shows the roll induced yaw tendency and, if not, then we are using a too large aleron deflection or the wing profile was not correctly chosen at the design stage, a problem being quickly and easily "cured" reducing aileron travel and/or incorporating aileron differential. So HAVING THAT IDEA ON MIND it is easy to understand the corrections as we'll see now.

If an aircraft with a classic gyro set up suffers a very little perturbation on roll, it will detect and oppose to it keeping the wings level but if the perturbation is large enough to override the gyro compensation (and it does not need to be too large but only to continue in time for a few seconds), the aircraft will roll to an angle and it will need a pilot aileron command to recover straight wings status with the gyro opposing him as the new angle of bank should be the new "neutral" plane for it. With this configuration we must NEVER hope the gyro to stabilize the aircraft back when it has finally rolled and, of course, it will never detect nor compensate the roll induced yaw thus obtaining a nose down turn towards the down wing. Only with a double axis gyro controlling rudder aside aileron we may keep some expectatives of avoiding the induced yaw but, again, never we will get the aircraft level without pilot command.

In an aircraft with my explained rear tilted gyro set up, again it will try to correct the roll perturbation -less powerfull than with classic set up, that's true!- and if finally the perturbation overrides the gyro counteraction and the aircraft rolls to a certain angle, as soon as the induced yaw starts it will inmediately and strongly detect and would try to compensate with opposite aileron so LEVELING the aircraft wings. The compensation will continue till the yaw becomes zero something only occurs when the wing gets straight and level. So, at worst, during the process and if the pilot does not apply a bit of up elevator as is normal during a turn, the aircraft should only loss a very little height and will never end with a wing and the nose down like is always going to hapen with a classic gyro set up.

So, pros and cons:

Classic longitudinal gyro set up. Pros: Very effective against MINOR roll perturbations; Cons: Just no leveling (autoestabilization) action and pilot has to "fight" against it for returning the wing to a level actitude.

Rear tilted gyro set up. Pros: Very powerfull leveling (autoestabilization) actuation which improves the flight security; Cons: Pilot has to change his mind for turning as he needs feeding aileron input for the entire maneouver or the aircraft will automatic and inmediately return to level flight as soon as the pilot relaxes on the aileron stick.

So here you have some "feed for thought" so as to be far better informed when deciding which gyro set up is more convenient for your jet.

Best Regards from Spain,

Jesus Cardin

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 12:26 PM   
HarryC


 

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Status: offline 		I am interested in this because I will soon be building the Mick Reeves Lightning which like many highly swept jets has a tendency to wobble in roll so I have an ACT gyro to put in it. I note some people saying that the gyro reduces the rate of roll. Doesn't the gyro know that you are giving a roll control and therefore should not try to fight against you?
Harry

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 12:56 PM   
mick15



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Status: online 		Hi Jesus, happy New Year to you and to everyone else.


A very plausible explanation presumably this should not affect you using a dual input gyro which many jets need for aileron differential and crow braking?

The another question you would, I imagine not recommend the use of AVCT?

m

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 3:04 PM   
fasteddi


 

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Status: online 		THIS IS A VERY INTRESTING THREAD!!!

I have that question to the tilted setup:
in a normal means roll-axis setup i program my act fuzzy following: i lift the left wing so the gyro lift the left aileron and dumps the right one. so the ailerons perform opposite deflection- like they perform in a turn.

in the tilted set up i have to program the fuzzy that way, that by a right yaw the left aileron will be lifted and also the right aileron deflect in the opposite direction??? is that right


next question:
how i will understand the manual of the act fuzzy gyro- i can setup the gain of the gyro compare to the deflection of the transmittersticks. they name it "stick-fadeout"
there are two small wheels on the gyro- 1. gain 2. defection/stick-fadeout.
so i can eliminate less rollrate???

please let me know if i am on the right way..........

a healthy and succesfully2009 to all
uwe

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 3:43 PM   
Craig B.


 

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Status: offline 		Uwe,

My understanding of the stick fadeout function was to prevent the gyro from reducing the roll rate as you approach maximum stick deflection. ie. it reduces the gain as you approach full aileron input. You could perhaps test this by rolling the plane with the stick centered and doing the same thing while someone held the aileron stick hard over and observing the gyro effect on the ailerons at each stick deflection.

Hope that helps.

Craig.




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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 3:52 PM   
Ray Davis


 

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Status: offline 		Curious guys....why require the gyro on the CG? Could be on the wing tip....angular rate of change is the same, regardless. No?

Ray

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 4:18 PM   
Craig B.


 

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Status: offline 		I agree Ray, angular change is the same. I doubt it should make a difference.

Craig.



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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 4:44 PM   
mick15



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Status: online 		If you don't put the gyro on the cg the yaw couple will be wrong.

m

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 5:04 PM   
billtulsa


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mick15

If you don't put the gyro on the cg the yaw couple will be wrong.

m

Not correct, the gyro can be in any part of the aircraft, just set the direction correctly. I have a Fuzzy in the very nose of my Skymaster 1/6 F-16. As the gain is turned up using a dial you can see the tail wiggle in gusty air just go away. I use there built in stick "fade out" as they call it. It works perfectly. You may need to reduce you expo once the gain is increased to maintain a similar feel.

I have worked with many gyros and the Fuzzy has been the best yet. Many gyros suffer from a trim change as the gain is increased but that is not the case with the Fuzzy.

Bill

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 5:38 PM   
flyinfool1



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Status: offline 		What Bill just said.
Gyros have been on helies for much longer than airplanes, I do not know of a single heli with the gyro on CG.
You can put the gyro anywhere as long as the axis is correct.

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 5:48 PM   
fasteddi


 

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Status: online 		thanks Craig, it helps!!!

uwe

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 6:31 PM   
mick15



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Status: online 		Ok, but before you havn't been asking one single axis gyro to work in TWO planes, ie both roll and yaw.

m

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 8:28 PM   
SinCityJets


 

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Status: offline 		Duke & Jesus,

Bare with me, I'm not very bright.

I still don't quite understand how you are setting up the gyro with this 120 degree method. The Fuzzy uses an external SMM sensor. I see your diagram Duke, but I can not tell what you are calling the top / bottom / side of the sensor.

Thanks.

Chad

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 9:14 PM   
fasteddi


 

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Status: online 		Chad i try to help you out.

a plane has 3 axis- roll, pitch and yaw. when i install the sensor- in the normal roll-axis mode i move the sensor in the roll-axis means left to right in all his positions. so i find out what is the position of the sensor to get a 100% input from the roll-axis. did you pitch or yaw the plane the ailerons are not moving. you dont have to know whats bottom, top of the sensor- you will see when the aileron-servos are deflecting.
for the tilted setup you bring the sensor in a position so the ailerons are deflecting when you jaw the plane. after that you are turning the sensor 30 degrees to the tail of your airplane. know you see the ailerons deflecting strong when you jaw the plane and in a less way when you roll the plane. when you pitch the plane the ailerons are not moving!!! check out that the left aileron lifts when you jaw and roll the plane to the right.

uwe

< Message edited by fasteddi -- 1/2/2009 11:54 PM >

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 11:07 PM   
SinCityJets


 

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Status: offline 		I guess that is what was confusing me. So you are actually setting up the gyro in a position near to what you would use for yaw instead of roll, then just tilting it back 30 more degrees?

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 11:30 PM   
fasteddi


 

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Status: online 		thats how i have understand it (dont blame me if i am wrong). you set the gyro 60 degrees to yaw-axis and 30 degrees to the roll axis.

uwe

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/2/2009 11:48 PM   
SinCityJets


 

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Status: offline 		hmmmm.....I guess I need a picture of the gyro in the correct position. What can I say, I'm a visual guy

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RE: What are the ABC's for Gyros in Jets. - 1/3/2009 12:29 AM   
Craig B.


 

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Status: offline 		I understand the principles at work with the tilted suggestion but why not just use two separate gyros to make life simpler. Different aircraft will have differing degrees of roll/yaw coupling and we would be trying to establish the best angulation/effect when, if you just put the two channel gyro on the ailerons and a simple single axis gyro on the rudder, problems are solved. That's what I would be doing on my models because I don't want to be messing around experimenting with angulations on my non-government sponsored aircraft

Craig.



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