RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log

RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log
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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/8/2009 1:08 AM

TBK

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Gary

I use a Hitec sail winch mounted just behind the mast base. It is a bit slow but has a lot of torque to be able to sheet in that large sail. The winch use a 30 mm drum and it makes about 3 1/2 turns. I have a small turning block mounted very near the bow. The sheet line runs from the lower pully on the drum through the block and then is taken up by the upper pulley. The whole thing is tensioned when the sheet is installed. On one side I have a small eyelet which the jib and mainsheet are attached to. As the drum rotates the eyelet moves from the sail winch up to the turning block. This gives me about 13 inches of sheet travel. The jib and main shhet are fed back to a small block which directs it up through the deck via a small stub of carbon fiber tube It exist the tube through a small plastic fairlead. The advantage of this method is that the sheets can be mounted cose to the booms and they act as "siphons tubes" that prevent water from getting into the boat should it go upside down. All this ins fitted and installed BEFORE the hulls are joined. I do have an access hatch to get att the sail winch but not the rest. You could put in a small forward hatch if you did want to get at the forward turning block. It things got broken that is what I would have to do. If go through the build log back a few pages you can see the locations of all the parts I just described. This is a very slick setup that makes for a very clean deck. So far I have not had any problems with either of my boats. I did think about going with a Futaba winch this time which is about 2 times as fast but I decided to keep the two new boat setups the same so they can be raced equally against each other. An alternative is to use a sail arm servo mounted on its side to get a large enough arm travel to provide a long sheet. Hope that answers your question.

I finally got all the boat parts primed today and after some minor touch-up with some glasing putty to take out the imperfections, I'll begin adding some color. I have picked up a really beautiful deep blue paint to be offset by the white in a scheme identical to the red boat. I use dupli-color automotive lacquer which comes by the quart and is already reduced and ready to spray. Great stuff and it makes a super finish. I also began assembling the rig for the boat as well. The sail is identical to my other boat except it has matching blue reinforcing patches. I'll post some pictures once there is some color on the boat.

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/8/2009 9:10 AM

dreamwakes

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TBK, thanks for the detailed winch explanation,,,Understand your installation now and like the simplicity of it, still not 100% sure on how you maintain tension ...unless you get tension by firstly keeping line firm on winch when fitting and secondly the weight of the jib and main sheets do the rest??, am I correct??.

I would stick with the sail winch myself, have them (Hitec) in my ETNZ's and they really do a great job...a little slow and they do struggle a little when the sails are really loaded up. Which makes me think that on a twitchy multi a fast servo response would probably be useful..will look into the futaba vs hitec costs down here.

Looking forward to your pics...and video footage!! ...

Gary

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/8/2009 12:35 PM

TBK

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Gary

The system gets tensioned when you install the lines. What I do is attach one end of the line to the lower pulley, then route it through the turning block up forward, then using the servo I wind in the line until the servo stops, then insert the other end into the upper winch pulley. At that point I take both ends and tie them together pulling the whole thing as tight as I can. I use a couple of small eyelets installed just ahead on the mast base to feed the lines to the winch and ensure that they don't get misaligned when the sheets are being pulled in or let out. To make this work I use a very low stretch 40lb polyester fishing line for the sheet and a low friction Hayles turning block which has tiny ball bearings. Over time it will get a little looser but not enough to ever come off the winch pulleys. Here are some photos showing the lines, eyelets and pulley arrangements.

TBK

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/8/2009 1:02 PM

dreamwakes

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Thanks for detailed explanation,a simple and effective set up , I like it!!. Gonna have to track down a bit of hardware soon to build a similar system.

Gary

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/13/2009 11:02 AM

Idealist

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TBK

Paintjob completed?

Can´t wait to see videos of both boats sailing side by side - at least as long as the lighter carbon boat doesn´t pass the fibreglass version!
Do you have a sailing friend there you can trust on the transmitter?

Idealist

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Post #: 180

RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/13/2009 7:30 PM

TBK

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Idealist,

I've had to put things aside while relatives were visiting but I finally got going again. Paintjob is almost complete. Just a couple of coats of clear, some silver pinstriping and some polish and it will be ready to go. Here are some photos with the blue and white finish. I should be able to find another steady hand to sail the two boats against each other, but I will probably maiden the boat on her own first to be sure everything is working just right. Also I am making two rudders for the boat - one with a small wing and the other without. I want to see if that will help to provide a little more bow lift under load.

TBK

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/14/2009 5:33 AM

dreamwakes

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Looking very nice TBK, not far from getting a some sailing feed back now.

Gary

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/15/2009 7:48 AM

Idealist

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I´m not sure from the pics - is the a metallic spraypaint?

In either way - looks VERY good!

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/15/2009 12:17 PM

TBK

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Yes it is a metallic paint. It's an acrilyc automotive lacquer from the same brand that I've been using - (Dupli-color). It goes on very thin and dries to a very hard finish that can be buffed and polished. The metallic is proving to be a little more tricky. When I wetsanded the first coat with 2000, prior to applying the clear coat, the finish changed and got all splochy, so I was forced to sand it down and apply another coat. This time before applying the clear I simply took some 2000 and "knocked off" the edge between the blue and white to get a smooth transition. That worked well and I finally got the clear coat applied last night. I'll be on to buffing and polishing tonight, then all the fittings go back on. I've got the matching rig all completed so it won't be long before I'll get to have another maiden voyage.

TBK

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/23/2009 10:42 AM

Idealist

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Hello TBK?

Got something going?
Or too busy at work?

Idealist

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/23/2009 11:16 AM

kiwibob72

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamwakes
......I would stick with the sail winch myself, have them (Hitec) in my ETNZ's and they really do a great job...a little slow and they do struggle a little when the sails are really loaded up. Which makes me think that on a twitchy multi a fast servo response would probably be useful..will look into the futaba vs hitec costs down here......

In my opinion, go for the RMG (280) Winches - bit expensive, but worth every cent .... seriously good wintch, programing to you TX is simple, they are seriousy fast, not too mention grunty as hell ..... and mine has NEVER given me any issues.

The difference I found when mucking around with my IOM yacht, was with the Hitec in my old boat, I'd lose 3-4 places each mark rounding while waiting on the sails to come in ...... all because the RMG equiped boats just shot on by while I was plodding around waiting that 1.5 -2 seconds extra - it does not sound like much until you see what it means with small fast yachts.

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/23/2009 12:14 PM

TBK

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Unfortunately I've been really busy and have not been able to devote any time to sailing or finishing the cf build. However the good news is that will change and I will have this boat finished and sailing by the weekend for sure. I plan to take all three of my tri's with me for a vacation next week at friend's cottage where I can spend several days sailing them all, comparing features, testing rudder configurations, sail tuning etc. I'll be bringing the camera and video so there should be lots to see. Stay tuned.

TBK

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/23/2009 12:25 PM

dreamwakes

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A vacation at a lake with three tri's , thats gold TBK....looking forward to the feed back!!.

Kiwibob, if i could only slip a couple of RMG's thru the front door and past the missus.....well maybe I can soon!!, got some family coming over from Oz in a couple of months...maybe they could slip them thru the front door....

Gary

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/23/2009 12:34 PM

TBK

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I really can't dispute that. The RMG is the cadillac of sail winches (altough a bit heavy and power hungry). The Futaba sail winch is a good choice for speed, but it lacks the torque. The Hitec has lots of torque but lacks the speed. The faster the ability to sheet in the more responsive the boat will be no question. However with multihulls that is not as critical since they can generate so much speed you can start sheeting in well before the mark rounding. When combined with gentle steering and progressive sheeting the mark rounding will be smoother, the boat will exit with more speed and will point higher. Approach the leeward mark wide, about a boat length away, then begin to steer and sheet at the same time, bringing the boat higher and closer to the mark as you round it. Steering right tight to the mark and then jamming the rudder forcing the boat upwind and then yanking the sheets in to match will slow the boat down, stall the sails and cause it to slip to lewward losing a valuable upwind ground. This is made worse when the winch is slow to respond. This is the primary difference between sailing a multihull and a monohull. Smooth fast roundings, going in wide and coming out tight with speed wins hands down in every case.

TBK

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/24/2009 9:52 AM

kiwibob72

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamwakes
......... Kiwibob, if i could only slip a couple of RMG's thru the front door and past the missus.....well maybe I can soon!!, got some family coming over from Oz in a couple of months...maybe they could slip them thru the front door....

Gary

You don't need to, again go to the Nth Shore model yacht club at Lake Pupuke, and ask around for Steve Williams (or his contact details at least) .... he gets them in, mine was like $300 or so about 4 years back, he is also the NZ Bantock agent as well (or at least he was 2.5 years back when I still lived up there), great guy to make contact with to get the bantock rigging screws, pulleys, boom fittings etc etc etc ..... as if your placing this amount of work into your boat .... good gear goes a long way to making it just that much more enjoyable!!

PS, with the RMG, you really need to run a proper battery pack, and not just the pop in battery holders to get the most out of them. Apparently the loss of circuit intermittently as the boat moves around can bugger up/confuse the RMG's .... thus the reason everyone uses the re-chargeable NiMH packs.
I had a 5 cell 6volt 2500milli amp NiMH pack made up at one of the battery places that are around (each AA cell soldered together, shrink wrapped), and it runs the rc gear as well the winch .... and lasts all day on a full charge!!
Also, ask Steve about which point in the set up mode of an RMG you NEED to remove the drum, as I understand guys have apparently ripped the pulleys out of their boats prior being these things produce so much power!
As for lines, pop into Kiteworks on Symonds St, and ask for some 90lb 'Spectra' .... it's a pre-stretched kite line (i use it with my 6 & 8 foot wide stunt kites as well), you'll need to get Perrin at Kiteworks to show you how to splice it, as knots just slip off it in time if not doen right .... but it is by far the best stuff you can get for sheets on a model yacht (IMO) once you learn just how to stop it all unwinding - I have NEVER had a sheet break using it, but if the boat ever produces the 90 pounds of force that is it's limit, I'd be surprised!

< Message edited by kiwibob72 -- 6/24/2009 10:06 AM >

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/25/2009 12:51 PM

dreamwakes

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TBK, Feel like we are hijacking ya thread with winch talk, hope you don't mind.
I do feel that the Hitec 285HB will struggle a bit with a loaded up Mini40, they certainly work hard in my ETNZ's, thing is the RMG280's are only 24 grams heavier than the hitec and I do like the idea of precision engineering, really would like to run RMG's in my Tri's....we'll see!!, won't be needing them for a few months yet.

Thanks for the info Kiwibob, good to know where to track down gear . I am presently upgrading all my battery packs and was going to make up some 6 cell packs of 1800mah eneloop's,(although I have just found a new AA battery released which has the same excellent advantages of eneloop but only 2/3rds the price). I was concerned that going above 1800mah might fry my Futaba Fasst receivers as I had read somewhere that they don't like any more than 1800.Not sure about this tho and need to do a little more homework yet.

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 6/25/2009 6:15 PM

TBK

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Gary

No problem mate. I went through the same decision process. For the me the choice was really been between the Futaba and the Hitec since it is difficult for me to get the RMG. So far I have not had any torque issues with the Hitec winches. They seem to be up to the task, but you do need to alter your sailing techniques to adapt to the slower speed. Unfortunately for me based on the enclosed sheeting system I used, it would take a sigificant amount of effort to backfit in an RMG, but it's something that I am considering for the future. If you plan on racing the boat then the RMG is by far the best option to remain competitive. I am a bit of a "lone wolf" up here
and the only tri's I'm likely to encounter would be my fleet of three boats.
TBK

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 7/2/2009 8:46 AM

Idealist

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TBK

Did you sail your three Tris by now?

Idealist

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 7/2/2009 12:23 PM

TBK

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Unfortunately the weather has been very poor lately (cold, rainy and no wind) and I didn't get a chance to visit my friend's cottage. I have yet to give the new cf nightmare its maiden voyage, but hopefully I will be able to this weekend, if the weather cooperates. I have used the time to build some custom travel boxes for the boats so when I do get a chance to pack them up and go they will be well protected. I'll post some pictures of these boxes shortly.

TBK

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 7/2/2009 4:51 PM

Idealist

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TBK

To see the transportboxes would be cool, but to see the boats sailing together would be much more important and a lot cooler!
I really need some input!

Idealist

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 7/7/2009 3:38 AM

TBK

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Idealist

Finally got to maiden voyage the carbon fiber nightmare mkvii. I have downloaded some video of it on youtube. Here are some shots of the finished boat. I did a couple of modifications to this boat to try to make it less sensitive to diving when hit by a gust. I added about 15 degrees more mast rake and I added a small inverted wing to the bottom of the rudder. You can see the pics of the modified rudder below. On the maiden voyage both of these changes made a significant impact on the boats performance. The boat accelerates quicker and as the speed picks up the bows stay level and there is no tendency to drive down in the gusts. Adding the wing doesn't seem to have slowed the boat down at all and the performance gain is worth it. I'm waiting for a day now when the wind is really blowing to see how she responds. The test day was light about 5-8 knots with gusts to 10 knots. Also included below are some shots of the travel cases I made. They are made of 1" x 1" pine frames covered with 1/8" plastic covered masonite. To hold everything secure inside I used a hunk of 4" foam cushion material and cut out inserts for the hulls using an electric carving knife. Everything for one complete boat fits neatly into one box.

TBK

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 7/7/2009 4:49 AM

dreamwakes

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Love your work TBK, post us a link to youtube.

Did you build a symetrical foil section for rudder wing and is it at a neutral position?, I had really thought this would slow the boat down or even provide too much lift astern when accelerating and so actually assist in pushing the leeward bow under. I am very happy to hear this works!!.

Gary

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 7/7/2009 1:06 PM

TBK

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Gary

Thanks. To answer your question, no the wing is not symmetrical. It has a flat top and airfoil bottom, essentially an airplane wing turned upside down. It is set at a neutral angle of attack, ie 90 degrees to the leading edge of the rudder. It works just like an airplane wing providing hydrodynamic lift due to the profile shape. The "lift" is in a downward direction and is proportional to the boat speed. This helps to push the front of the boat upwards. The additional mast rake that I used also moves the center of effort more aft also having a positive influence on bow position. The wing is quite small and relatively thin so that the additional drag is minimal. I am making another rudder for this boat without a wing to assess the performance difference. I tried posting the video on youtube last night but the site was undergoing maintenance and wouldn't take any uploads. I went on-line this morning to upload but it is slow and wasn't finished when I left for work. I'll post the link when I'm sure it has been uploaded.

TBK

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 7/7/2009 4:30 PM

Idealist

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TBK

Can´t wait to hear about your results!
Also for the video on youtube.

To see your boats sailing together will be the reward for all my developmentwork!

Idealist

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RE: Nightmare MKVII Trimaran Build Log - 7/8/2009 11:40 AM

TBK

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I still haven't been able to get the video uploaded onto youtube. I'll try again tonight.

< Message edited by TBK -- 7/8/2009 11:42 AM >

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