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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/24/2009 1:41 AM   
Saillfish


 

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Status: offline 		I felt like it was the carb the whole time. After the other day flying and I posted the info on the cutting out when I went inverted or pulled any kind of neg. G's. That told me right away the carb was junk. Please keep us posted on the Walbro carb deal. Maybe some photos to. Good luck with it. Should we all be keeping track of our hours to charge Saito for R&D.

< Message edited by Lightfoot -- 5/1/2009 8:38 PM >

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/24/2009 2:33 AM   
w8ye



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Status: offline 		The pump doesn't have diaphragms in it like a Walbro

The gaskets/diaphragms are clear plastic and have the check valve flaps cut into them but seem rather sitff

The main diaphragm closest to the carb is drawn by vacuum towards the carb but is spring return

I took mine apart and it was all oil inside. Must be from the 20:1 mix?

There's no regulator, just a pump.


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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/24/2009 4:02 AM   
3rd Time


 

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Status: offline 		Got mine back from Horizon today for the second time. They replaced the carb and spark plug this time that is progress last time they said that there was nothing wrong with it. I had been using a 15X6 prop they used a 15X8 so of to the hobby shop. Ran engine and had 8600 rpm and sounded good idle was good we are makeing progress I though. Only problem is the mid range is rich and at full power it takes a little time to clear out and make good power when going back to full power. Called Horizon and talked to tech that had worked on engine he said to try adjusting the mid range mixture after the high end was set. Did not make since to me but gave it a try and the engine ran pretty good at all rpm's. I had started with a full tank of gas let engine run at about 6500 rpm to burn of fuel with about 1/4 tank went back to full power had 8200 rpm then the engine died because it was to lean. So it ran better but still works better as paper weight than an engine. I am going to take it back to the hobby shop and see if the can return it for credit and I can get a real gas engine that I can put in my plane. I have a Saito 120 from 1984 that I put a CH ign and WT-456-1 carb on and it runs good but doesn't make the power of the FG-20 but at least it runs.

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/24/2009 5:24 AM   
modelflyer5


 

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Status: offline 		I think that the engine died because you ran it way to long static. These engines are made to run in the air. They require the air being forced around them to cool off. Just running them static is not enough to cool them down. Every gas engine that I have owned does that same thing. I also wonder if you have now damaged the plug by cooking it.

Forceing these things to run static for long amounts of time is not good for the engine. I have run my engine twice for a total of about ten minutes and then put it away. It runs good static, but I expect it to need adjustment after being in the air. I have an evolution engine that took at least five good test flites before it ran well. Gasers are not a glow engine. They will not just tune on the ground and run great in the air. You need to try it in the air before you give up. My first gas engine was really hard to get right. I wanted to get rid of it. One of the guys at the field had to calm me down and then helped me to get it to run right. Now it is a very reliable engine.

I am very anxious about this engine myself. I feel for you guys. I am wondering if I have a $500.00 "paper weight". Once I finish the plane and put it in the air, I won't know for sure. I will at least give it a shot.

I have seen alot of gassers run great on the ground and not so well in the air. Test it. Have some people around you that have gas engines. Talk it over. Adjust from there. At least give it a chance in the air.

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/24/2009 5:55 AM   
tkg


 

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www.ch-ignitions.com

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/24/2009 3:19 PM   
3rd Time


 

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Status: offline 		I don't think the engine quit because it ran to long on the test bench. It quit because the carb leaned out because it was not pumping the gas at the same presure as the fuel level dropped in the tank. Talking to others at the field is not a help because other gas engines have walbro carbs not a modified glow carb. The FG-36 has been out longer than the FG-20 and you don't see 13 pages of problems on it because it has a walbro carb. If I am not happy with the way it runs on the ground why would I go to all the trouble to install it in a plane and hope it runs better? And I don't want to loose my plane if the engine fails. Good luck with yours in the new plane.

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/28/2009 4:04 AM   
R/C Foolish



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Status: offline 		Well, I know everybody is going to hate me, but mine is running great now. But I did all the work that Horizon/Saito should have done. Flew my Seagul Edge 540 with FG-20 in it tonight, 2 flights about 8 minutes apiece. Engine ran perfect, tachs at about 9500 with an APC 15x6 prop. Transition is excellent. I am using Rimfire plug, I replaced my Saito carb and Ignition by ordering them direct from Horizon. Needle settings as instructed by Saito. Tank is a Bennett 16 oz. tank using their filtered clunk, running a loop line to carberatur. I just didn't want to waste time sending back and forth to Horizon, did the replacements myself, hoping for the best. Saito seems to be ignoring our dillemma, I have not heard from Bill Brundle since before Toledo and he has not replied to any of my emails. So I have over $800 invested in this motor but right now it is flying great. I hope it gets better as it breaks in.

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/28/2009 4:46 AM   
w8ye



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Status: offline 		Here's Bill's and his boss Pete Bergstrom's picture when they were in Japan at the Saito Fly-in to look at the FG-20

Picture 3 is Bill Picture 4 is Pete

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< Message edited by w8ye -- 4/28/2009 5:17 AM >

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/28/2009 4:54 AM   
R/C Foolish



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Status: offline 		Yeah, he told me he was there flying the same plane that I have mine in. The FG-20 flies the Seagul Edge very nice.

R/C Foolish

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/28/2009 7:36 AM   
Saillfish


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: R/C Foolish

Well, I know everybody is going to hate me, but mine is running great now. But I did all the work that Horizon/Saito should have done. Flew my Seagul Edge 540 with FG-20 in it tonight, 2 flights about 8 minutes apiece. Engine ran perfect, tachs at about 9500 with an APC 15x6 prop. Transition is excellent. I am using Rimfire plug, I replaced my Saito carb and Ignition by ordering them direct from Horizon. Needle settings as instructed by Saito. Tank is a Bennett 16 oz. tank using their filtered clunk, running a loop line to carberatur. I just didn't want to waste time sending back and forth to Horizon, did the replacements myself, hoping for the best. Saito seems to be ignoring our dillemma, I have not heard from Bill Brundle since before Toledo and he has not replied to any of my emails. So I have over $800 invested in this motor but right now it is flying great. I hope it gets better as it breaks in.

R/C Foolish


I dont hate you. I am happy for you. Mine is still a junk. Horizon put a new ignition and carb on mine and it still runs like crap. As I wrote, mine runs crappy in any neg G flying. Runs good all the rest of the time. I bought a YS 1.40 today for my Funtana. This Saito is gone as soon as I can get it out.

< Message edited by Lightfoot -- 5/1/2009 8:26 PM >

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 4/29/2009 10:18 PM   
tkg


 

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Status: offline 		Well CH has got one. We still would like to buy one cheap, cause this one the costumer wants back
Bad news is that after fiddling a lot with the carb it runs OK 8300 on an APC 15x8 and 9600 on a 15x6. Stock ignition and stock plug. DARN don't get to sell any ignitions
With the carb adjust correctly it is almost impossible to restart with those settings, but a little choke with the thumb and it will fire right up.
The pump is a pump not a regulator. I cant tell if the engine is running on the pump or just suction. But the needle will adjust to way rich.
I guess well have to get into a plane and see what happens with +- G forces.
Will keep folks post on progress.

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/2/2009 5:24 AM   
Ernies


 

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Status: offline 		New thoughts.
Glow fuel in FG 20. Running 5% glow or home brew methanol with Klotz synthetic technoplate racing oil at 15% or 20% no nitro will this work with out messing up the pump or o rings if any in the carb. I have run ST 2300 with pro spark and perry carb this way and it made a nice running dependable engine. FG 20 would run cooler with more power and fuel cost would not be a lot higher then gas. Plus running with the things we all like about 4 strokes. Ys is using ignition on the 170. What are your pros cons and thoughts. What other synthetic oils would be possible that would reduce possible plug problems.

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/2/2009 5:27 AM   
w8ye



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Status: offline 		I don't think you will hurt the pump for it has the Mylar type diaphragms in it.

I don't know if you will have enough fuel flow capacity?

The needle should be less sensitive.

< Message edited by w8ye -- 6/27/2009 8:35 AM >

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/3/2009 11:50 PM   
tkg


 

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Status: offline 		Got it mounted and flown. It is a viable engine, it is also a MAJOR PIA to get working right. We flew it with the stock ignition and stock spark plug. 8300 rpm APC 15x8
For those who think its a gasser with a pump carb, so you can mount your gas tank near the CG, forget about it. Think glow engine fuel tank set up.
We flew the engine with the tank in the gasser position and had trouble setting the carb, finally got it to run upright, but it would go way rich in -G flight.
Moved the tank so that it was in the glow position, center-line of carb just below the top of the tank. Again a PIA to adjust. Adjust the carb HS 1 click at a time fly +- Gs, land and adjust 1 more click, fly again. Used tach to keep track of Max rpm so it didn't get to lean. After 6 clicks it would run hard in + or - G maneuvers. Then adjusted the LS for good idle and transistion. Now do the HS one click at a time AGAIN. After about 45 min we got it running and idling very good. A tune up, dial in on a 2c gasser takes about 3 min.
Made a 25min flight on about 5oz of fuel, 70% WOT.
IMHO is is a good upper level engine for the experienced modeler, not a good choice for the newbie 1st time gasser. The operating costs are very low
More diddling to come

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/4/2009 12:14 AM   
rc4j



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Status: offline 		Thank goodness you figured it out! I got two of these for a twin project. Even though I got them at a pretty good price, I thought I really messed up, and had bought a real lemon. I know it's overpriced, but I like the idea of low fuel consumption, with easy clean-up, AND the great four stroke sound all-in-one. I haven't tried running them yet, just been waiting to see how it would go. Thanks again for figuring this thing out! Looking forward to hearing more positive comments on this engine!!

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/4/2009 1:00 AM   
Saillfish


 

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Status: offline 		Here is some FG-20 spark plugs for sale. http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemID=511022

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/4/2009 3:12 AM   
bcchi


 

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Status: offline 		We installed the FG 20 in my old Orginal Roadrunner ,Plane is about 30 years old. and weights about 15 lbs. Not a 3D plane by any means but a good spot plane with the FG20.
This is a fine engine but as TKG said it does take some careful tuneing . Will run over one hour on a 16 oz tank. Reg gas and 20 to 1 penns air colled oil. Lots of oil out the crankcase breather.
Just got in from flying the GH-20 again today. Flew it several times and put well over 90 mins on it.It ran great through inside and outside snaps never missed a lick. I did have a couple dead sticks getting idle stop and idle down adjusted. Engine seems to run very cool for a gasser.But was not a hot day.
I flew it on the SAito ignitions and our C&H ignition with Rim Fire spark plug both on 4.8 volts. Just about the same .I believe it did have a little better throttle response on our C&H ignition. Ive got to think of something about C&H that is better . How about cost our C&H is less then half the cost of the SAito.IMHO I do not think there is a problem with the carb or ignition.It is just a lot more touchy then a gas burner with a Walbro. We run a `15x8 APC on it yesterday turned 8100 to 8200. TKG has a tach. I flew it some today with a 16x6 APC seemed to turn a little better and pulled plane better. I do not own a Tach they just tell you things you do not want or need to no.
I have 20 airplanes with gas engines and they all run good,maybe I am just not fussy enough. I fly most of them with Futaba fasst receivers with TM 7&8 modules in 9C tramsmitters. I am really getting to like the Fasst systems.
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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/5/2009 2:38 AM   
laryboy



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Status: offline 		TKG........can you put together a simple set up procedure for just the casual flyer. my engine run rough at mid range.................................larry

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/5/2009 3:05 AM   
FA_FLY


 

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Status: offline 		I have an Saito FG20 Gas engine. The question is, does Evolution oil only come in 2 cycle? Is there such thing as an Evolution 4 stroke oil?
If not should i just simply run evolution 2 cylce oil and gas at 20:1.

Thank You


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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/5/2009 3:47 AM   
w8ye



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Status: offline 		horizon says Evolution 2 cycle oil and gasoline at 20:1



< Message edited by w8ye -- 7/5/2009 9:26 AM >

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/5/2009 5:11 AM   
rmalko


 

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Status: offline 		There are more videos of the fg 20 on you tube. This link is for the Funtana 125 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxHq3pPZmUs&feature=related

I now have a carb adapter designed for the walbro and having it machined. If it works well I will improve the cosmetics of the design. Have to try this out of curiosity. Hopefully better performance and less hassle.

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/5/2009 6:04 AM   
tkg


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laryboy

TKG........can you put together a simple set up procedure for just the casual flyer. my engine run rough at mid range.................................larry

NO, that's the whole problem there is no simple set up procedure. Its all 1 click at a time on the HS needle and 1/16 turn on the idle mix at a time.
You just have to sneak up on it.
I have been doing this for 22 years and have to set up 4-5 strange engines a week. Thats a bunch of engines and it took me 45 min to get it right, a newbie without an ear for engine sounds will be forever doing it.


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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/5/2009 7:43 PM   
laryboy



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Status: offline 		you guys are doing a great job while saito is mostly silient. i am only trying to take off and land with the motor still running. not interested in arobatics. trying to follow your suggestions one by one. ....with regard to fuel tank......my motor is mouted upside down on the recomended metal mount ( and there's a story there with saito generated problems of motor almost hitting fire wall). where should tank be located w/r to center line of carb? assume tank cant be moved to ideal position which is quite common with so many arf's. are we in need of a perry pump and cline regulator ? one ? both ? any idea's on this ?.......................keep up the good work....horizon hobby never seems to talk about tuning....from what i've read they keep replacing parts until problem is fixed or customer gives up..........................larry

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/5/2009 8:02 PM   
w8ye



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Status: offline 		Has Horizon has thrown us down the stairs with the FG-20. I'm not hearing or seeing anything from them

< Message edited by w8ye -- 6/27/2009 8:40 AM >

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RE: Saito FG-20 or 21 - 5/6/2009 5:51 AM   
tkg


 

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Status: offline 		The FG we're flying is 1.5" from the fire wall.
If the tank won't line up on your ARF start cutting.
Center line on the carb should be in the upper 1/3 of the fuel tank.
Don't know about a Perry pump, muffler pressure did what its supposed to do, but didn't solve any problems.
If the tank is to low in normal flight, then its too high inverted and in - Gs and the engine runs rich.
If you can try running the engine with the tank 2"" low set the HS needle for a good run and then raise the tank 4" so its now 2" to high and see how the engine runs.

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