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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore f... - 2/11/2009 2:13 PM   
rmh



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Status: offline 		Those who labored thru college coursesand exams sometimes feel that this is the only way to really learn flying
It is not ,of course
My old RC flying friend -who was the Prof of Engineering at a large university, once told me that the success rate of students was about - 10%.
We were kicking around the idea as to which type of education was best -
anyway, from actual experience, in instructing kids and adults as well as doing standup gags on stage - the most important part is to "keep their attention".
For learning to fly models , some On the Spot ground school which never exceeds a couple of minutes - works very well.
The info should stay related to the upcoming flight.
Those who want to delve into airfoils (?) and relative moment arms and conservation of angular momentum, etc. etc., will typically ask. The others could not G. A . S. less.

< Message edited by dick Hanson -- 2/11/2009 2:14 PM >

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore f... - 2/11/2009 2:34 PM   
apwachholz



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Status: offline 		"What I would NOT like to see however is the simple adoption of something approaching full scale pilot licence requirements." - Sandmann_AU

Matt, some of the points you touched are the very reason that I am concerned about the future of our hobby in the years to come. Not that it will fade away or loose public interest but, that it will come under scrutiny by of all places the FAA! Yes, I said the FAA. My girlfriend, who is not only a degreed and licensed pilot but a research developer for the FAA has mentioned several times that the FAA is now heavily contending with policies and procedures regarding UAS (Unmanned Arial Systems). And one of the very hobbies they are discussing is our hobby and how closely we parallel that world. Of course, this made me a bit nervous since the very reason this hobby exists is for fun and enjoyment and not for military purposes.

But, as you pointed out Matt, it's kinda scary how close we come to a UAS in our buildings of aircraft with turbines, weights exceeding 55lbs and AMA signed waivers for flying them, and speeds in excess of 100mph. My concern is that unless we show through either clubs or the AMA (in America) that we have a solid grasp and understanding of what it is we are doing as a hobby and can do it safely all the while having fun, we run risks of contending with outside elements like the FAA.

Now that being said, setting up a club curriculum that is educational and most of all fun, would be a wonderful idea. It could be started out very much like any class: The student runs the gamut and then becomes a teacher...and the cycle continues. Now of course this would run strictly in the clubs and at AMA sanctioned events but, perhaps it may bleed its way out to the general public and spur more interest in our hobby as a whole!

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore f... - 2/11/2009 2:52 PM   
Sandmann_AU



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Status: offline 		It's hardly surprising in post 9/11 USA that various branches of the government are looking closely at freedoms that for generations we've taken for granted, and yes if we're responsible for fast, heavy, and potentially dangerous things flying about it's pretty reasonable that the official body that controls the airspace will want a say in it. The club I fly at is only about 10 miles from a large international airport and we have traffic lanes immediately overhead, so we've got a limited ceiling (400'). Normally that doesn't bother us as a regular model becomes a dot at that height however only a few weeks ago a club member flew a large scale military jet (F-15 I believe) somewhat higher and it apparently appeared on the airport's radar! The club received a warning from CASA (Civil Aviation Safety Authority - our version of your FAA). Usually full size aircraft don't bother us however, and our only airborne menace is running into a bird or someone else's model.

I have a feeling things RC operate slightly differently in the US than here, from what I've read. Here if you want to fly RC you can do it on private property or in a club but most people do it in clubs, and you MUST be qualified by the MAAA (our version of your AMA) before you can do so. I read in another thread recently that there were non-AMA members complaining that it was unfair that they were excluded from club fields there - that can't really happen here as club by-laws prevent non members or approved guests using the facilities, despite the fact that the grounds are often leased from local councils or state governments, and only very rarely privately owned land.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore f... - 2/12/2009 7:36 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dick Hanson

...................
The info should stay related to the upcoming flight.
Those who want to delve into airfoils (?) and relative moment arms and conservation of angular momentum, etc. etc., will typically ask. The others could not G. A . S. less.


Totally agree with Dick.
The will for learning the "why" of things is a personal thing, it is related to the mental software that comes from the factory.

However, I believe, a pilot (driver, etc.) who is willing to get educated or informed beyond the piloting skills will have better tools to grow up to his/her full natural potential.

Theory is no substitute for skills, but it reinforces them.

< Message edited by lnewqban -- 2/12/2009 7:39 PM >

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/12/2009 8:42 PM   
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Status: offline 		An interesting topic and I am glad it got posted. I will add my two cents as well. I have been flying RC since since the mid to late 90's. I started when i was fairly young and joined a local club. I bought an ARF trainer and learned on the buddy box, much like many people do every day. I can tell you right now that I was taught absolutely nothing about the basics of aerodynamics at that time. In fact looking back on it I don't ever remember it being brought up. I was given a buddy box and taught how to manuever the airplane. Fast forward to 3 years ago. I had taken a 5 year break from the hobby when I decided to start full scale flight training. In the process of learning the basics for my private Pilot's license I began to learn alot about simple aerodynamics. It did not take long for to realize that I was thouroughly fascinated by this whole area of study. Flying full scale is what brought me back to flying RC. I started taking some of those basic concepts and watching my RC planes very closesly and observing how they reacted as compared to full scale. A basic understanding of aerodyanmics has given me a vast improvement in my flying skills. When you have a firm grasp of the mechincs of flight you are more aware of your airplane and truly a better pilot for it. While this knowledge is not neccesary to successful flight I am a firm believer now that it can only make you better. Now that I have my Full scale flight instructor rating and an Air Force instructor for Jet engines I am a very enthusiastic purveyor of this knowledge. I think all RC pilots could benifet from some advanced aircraft aerodyanmics.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/12/2009 8:50 PM   
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lnewqban / dick Hanson -

But based on some of your responses to this particular thread, should there even be an Aerodynamics forum for radio control then? If the reason for the forum is, as it states, to "Discuss the physics of flight revolving around the aerodynamics and design of aircraft." why are there arguments defending why you should not need to understand it as an rc pilot? Therefore wouldn't statements against pursuing further knowledge of flight physics be detrimental to your arguments when they are posted within this very Aerodynamics forum?

I'm not trying to engage, rather, I'm just trying to wrap my head around why there is so much resistance to the idea of how understanding the basics of flight physics would be damaging to any new rc'er...

< Message edited by apwachholz -- 2/12/2009 8:52 PM >

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/12/2009 9:14 PM   
rmh



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Status: offline 		As long as the discussion is applicable to the info required/desired, of course it should be persued.
Far too often, we ge caught up in aerodynamic problems /situations effects, which simply don't help in learning to fly models
Typically it is data developed for a particular situation in large /full scale applications..
Tho it is seldom mentioned - the final shape of an airfoil or aspect ratio of awing - is oftendue to structural and/or power limitations.
In models IF you are into assembling a kit of a scale subject for example . The fact that the model resembles the full scale subject has little to do with it's flying like the full scale subject.
However a question such as " how critical is wing loading to various sizes of models and what are some good working parameters," should get some good answers from those who do fly models and have worked at this factor of flight.
Understanding this , will help you realize that simply duplicating a shape , in smaller scale does NOT provide scaled results
The shape , size, weight and speed all must be factored in.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore fl... - 2/12/2009 10:36 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: apwachholz

Am I missing something here? Shouldn't understanding how a plane flies and how you should fly it (aside from the control sticks) be the most important bit of information presented to a beginner (or for that matter an experienced pilot) from the start?


Of course, how else did you learn or how are you learning right now? Have you joined a club and taken lessons?

Scratch building and flying gliders and free-flight rubber planes are very good for learning about the basics, that's how we used to learn these things before moving onto RC...



< Message edited by Mr Cox -- 2/12/2009 10:37 PM >

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore f... - 2/12/2009 11:07 PM   
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Status: offline 		The question originally posed is a good one, but I think it is simpler - what is the basic set of aerodynamic concepts NECESSARY for success as an RC pilot. Recognizing that some folks are just 'good sticks' and may not have any theoretical background but fly well, it is also true that some informational foundation makes one a better (driver, diver, pilot, swimmer, etc) active participant. I would suggest that at a minimun, a new RC pilot should be able to articulate 1) the concept of stall airspeed, 2) the forces that maintain airspeed (gravity with nose down, power - to Hanson's point). Much of the rest of aerodynamics is interesting to us flight geeks, but may not be immediately useful. For example, I understand (some things) about wingtip vortices, but don't need that concept to fly. Maybe wing loading comes close to being useful? What do you folks think?

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 4:55 AM   
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Status: offline 		This forum is still valid despite the claims that newbies only need to learn a very small amount as it pertains to specific trouble areas. It is valid because although the pilot doesn't need to know all there is to fly the AIRPLANE needs the benifit of this knowledge properly applied to fly well. While the beginner can manage in near total ignorance and learn by rote and example how to fly it's only because the designer knew his chops that the model is able to fly well enough to teach that ignorant beginner what works and what doesn't and not crash into oblivioin doing so.

And then there's the highly specialized load carriers, racing models, sailplanes, precision aerobatic models, etc, etc that also depend on their designers knowing their stuff and applying it well to allow their model to perform that little bit better than the next guys. But even at the highest levels of competition it still isn't neccessary that the PILOT should know as much as the designer. The pilot just needs to know enough to know what he can get away with in the model's performance and how to get the best out of it. Something as simple as learning not to try using too much aileron on a sailplane when flying slowly. The aerodynamicist will avoid doing so because he understands about adverse yaw and aileron induced stalls that result in counter turn snap rolls. The non-aerodynamicist pilot will remember that the last time he tried using too much aileron when flying this slowly it made the airplane do something "funky" and he'll just avoid using too much stick the same as the aerodynamicist. Same results but from two really opposite reasoning processes.

So while I still say that the pilot doesn't need to know much about aerodynamics as a science there's no doubt that aerodynamics is important to the pilot even if he doesn't know why and could care less. And since there's designers and design analyzers that find this stuff amusing and valuable we have this forum. And for some, like me and many others in this particular forum, we are both designers and pilots and suffer from rabid curiosity about how our toys perform and how we can make them better at their task.

Howzatt?

< Message edited by BMatthews -- 2/13/2009 4:56 AM >

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 1:47 PM   
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Status: offline 		The part that is really funny - is looking back recently on the writings of some full scale aerodynamicists who poo pooed and doubted that the small flat plate wing models could actually be the BEST design for smooth accurate aerobatic flight .
Point being that experience in ANY given field , often beats theory .
Remember - till the theory was tested and proven and books were written , it was all cut n try.
I have seen self taught flyers -who in a few weeks experience ,learned to hover and fly prdictably in high alpha flight
they kwew ZERO about theory - just pecked away at it and had fun
CG? "oh yeh well I just move the battery till it flies like I want it to."
The traditional approaches much like traditional religions is now, oftern passed on by.
Does that make it the best approach?
maybe - maybe not .
Depends on what you want out of it.
Supersonic flight theory is fun to read about and cogitate on but of no practical value to me.
PS can one calculate the maximum angle a rider can lean a Grand Prix Kow at speed?
Or did the guys do it before some one calculated it?
In drag racing 45 years ago - the slip stick guys said " max speed in the 1/4" is 160mph (or something like that .) had to do with traction coefficient etc..
after the racers blew on by that number - the theorists reevaluated the whole issue. n gave up. Just too many intangibles. Ithink it is now something like 340 mph in 4 sec. How do you figure traction on that?

< Message edited by dick Hanson -- 2/13/2009 1:58 PM >

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 2:51 PM   
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Status: offline 		Just to ensure that we're staying the course per my original post, I'm not assuming if you don't have knowledge of some basic flight physics that you can't or won't be able to fly. In addition I'm also not saying that logic and theory outweigh experience. My question is this:

Would it be beneficial or detrimental to a new rc pilot to know a base understanding of how things fly before they learn to fly themselves?

I think there are two schools of argument going on. One believeing that I'm saying you can't fly if you don't know this, and the other saying that I'm disavowing all previous experience and concentrating purely on written physics. I'm just curious, based on all historically accurate previous knowledge, what some peoples schools of though are about my question above.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 2:58 PM   
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Status: offline 		I think if you average the responses to this thread it boils down to this: pure physics won't teach you to fly, and pure skills won't make you a perfect pilot. Some knowledge of flight physics - while not essential for our hobby - is probably helpful to improve your skills. The difficulty is in deciding how much is helpful and how much is information overload - and that really depends on who's doing the learning.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 4:28 PM   
js3



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Status: offline 		This is an interesting topic.

My seven-year-old son got a Blade MCX heli for xmas. He's gotten pretty darn good with the thing too. I see him hovering nose in which is supposed to be very difficult but since he doesn't know it's hard to do, he just does it. No problem.

I think Sandmannn_AU summed it up nicely.

quote:

I think if you average the responses to this thread it boils down to this: pure physics won't teach you to fly, and pure skills won't make you a perfect pilot. Some knowledge of flight physics - while not essential for our hobby - is probably helpful to improve your skills. The difficulty is in deciding how much is helpful and how much is information overload - and that really depends on who's doing the learning.


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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 5:48 PM   
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Status: offline 		Insects fly with no knowledge of the physics of flight.

An aeronautical engineer will still need help getting his plane in the air the first time around.

If you give it a big enough engine, you can make a brick fly.

I think its easily shown that there is no need to teach the basics of flight physics to teach someone how to fly a plane. Muscle memory and practice will take over, and fairly quickly depending on the student. Now if we want to optimize the system, thats where the knowledge of aerodynamics and flight physics comes into play. If I want the plane to do something (e.g. hover) and I don't understand what its going to take, I may become fairly frustrated. I can't do 3-d maneuvers with my glider, and I can't catch thermals with my Edge 540. If I don't understand the basics in that situation, then I simply have to rely on someone else (designer) that does.

Do I think we should spend some time learning or teaching flight basics? Yes, because it adds to the enjoyment of the hobby. Is it essential? Probably not.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 6:56 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: apwachholz


Would it be beneficial or detrimental to a new rc pilot to know a base understanding of how things fly before they learn to fly themselves?






You've had some good replies to your question. But they do not seem to be enough.

Since you are judge and jury on the answer I suspect there will be NO acceptable answer as there will always be another "But what if___" to be considered.

I view the response this way: all the theory and technical understanding in the world will NOT guarantee that even a decent pilot results.
All the aptitude, and eye hand coordination gifts probably will guarantee an above average pilot.

Therefore the ONLY answer to your question is "It depends."
And the "depends" comes down to the individual.

A GOOD pilot like a good driver, good baseball player, good 'you name it' has learned to respond/react far faster than you, he or anyone else can think his way through the problem.
If response is not instinctive then "it ain't fast enough".

There are 'naturals' who get it right off the bat. There are others who should take up another hobby because they simply don't have it.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 8:28 PM   
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Status: offline 		When I was learning to fly, one of the best fliersat the glider hill said to "the more lead in the nose, the better the plane flies, it is like a dart". While this was not correct, it worked well for him.
It is possible to fly without knowing why it works. But the more you know, the better you can trim your plane. (Trim is more than cg and control centers).

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 8:32 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: apwachholz
Would it be beneficial or detrimental to a new rc pilot to know a base understanding of how things fly before they learn to fly themselves?



In theory, perhaps. In actual practice, of no consequence.



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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 10:00 PM   
rmh



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AmongThe worst model flyers I ever tried to teach:
An ex fighter pilot
A commercial multi jet airline capt
a civil instructor
These three guys simply "didn't get it -and said as much.
Among The best flyers I know
An ex fighter pilot
a commercial multi jet airline cap't
A civil instructor.
The most astounding and ,adept flyers I know , all started as kids who knew nothing about theory but "got it " INSTANTLY.

Starting out at 7 years of age as a clarinet student and playing with various bands in high school / college - I sa the same thing .
Some "got it " with little or no formal training - just ' naturals ".
An old jazz group gag is the side man who was asked if he read.
"yup," he replied " but not enough to hurt me".
Studying aerodynamics before learning to fly models is like giving a dead man an enema.
It may not help but it can't hurt.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/13/2009 10:59 PM   
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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/14/2009 12:00 AM   
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Status: online 		It took about 5 minutes to explain to my younger sisters what makes the plane go up and down, right and left, and how to maintain enough speed to keep the plane from falling out of the sky. Well worth the efort. I think the briefing took some of the mystery out of what they were doing. They learned control by doing "coming and going" laps concentrating on moving the stick to the side of the low wing panel to keep the plane straight on return trips. Once they see that they can keep a plane from corkscrewing in [coming or going], that's the biggest confidence booster. They learned like I did on a 6 foot glider. I think the glider gives the emerging pilot a better feel for the "physics" than an engine powered plane. You bow to the physics on every flight, they can't be ignored.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/15/2009 12:07 AM   
rmh



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Status: offline 		Well we have helpd beat this to death but I do think that if one is goingto get into building one's own designs (it's called scratch building), then a review of basics is a good idea
An even better idea is to find out WHY airplanes ended up in the shapes they are in and WHAT materials work best for certain weights and applications.
After all The science of aerodynamics is all about how to handle weight and speed of aircraft.
Can't think of any other reason to do it.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/15/2009 2:58 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dick Hanson



Can't think of any other reason to do it.



Well, ____________ it chews up a lot of "winter time" hours on RCU.

Trust me, flying an airplane and designing an airplane are two different disciplines. On rare occasions you find the two qualities in one person _________ simply not often.

Back in the day of the Taurus, how many fliers did you know who copied the design; changed several insignificant lines and called it "their" airplane.
Ditto on the Kwik Fli III.
I can come up with half a dozen well known names right off the bat.

We 'Politely' call that 'design trends'.

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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/15/2009 3:03 AM   
BMatthews



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quote:

ORIGINAL: apwachholz
...Would it be beneficial or detrimental to a new rc pilot to know a base understanding of how things fly before they learn to fly themselves?


We've more than answered this version of the question even if it was done inadvertently.


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RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore ... - 2/15/2009 3:32 AM   
rmh



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quote:

ORIGINAL: onewasp

quote:

ORIGINAL: dick Hanson



Can't think of any other reason to do it.



Well, ____________ it chews up a lot of "winter time" hours on RCU.

Trust me, flying an airplane and designing an airplane are two different disciplines. On rare occasions you find the two qualities in one person _________ simply not often.

Back in the day of the Taurus, how many fliers did you know who copied the design; changed several insignificant lines and called it "their" airplane.
Ditto on the Kwik Fli III.
I can come up with half a dozen well known names right off the bat.

We 'Politely' call that 'design trends'.


We used to call it "rudder engineering". change the rudder shape - presto !- a new design.
I copied because Iwa too cheap to buy a kit- then I went to work finding out what really mattered
lots of surprises followed.
Thehardest part was getting all the BS off my boots.
It's all about power n wing loading.

_____________________________

Libby is still watching you

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(in reply to onewasp)
       Post #: 50

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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Aerodynamics >> RE: Loaded Question: Why is it that rc pilots ignore flight physics?
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