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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/2/2009 7:44 PM   
g.hodgesrc


 

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Although I think if we all were using the 424 rules, but restrict the engine, prop, and fuel this would help unify all the Q-25 pylon groups around the country."
*******
quote:

" My .02 on unifying the event around the country. I think it wise to leave each area to their own choice of engine, prop, fuel....
In the earlier days of Quickee 500, each region ran the engine that they wanted and all was well. Races with 50 entries were common. *** So, be careful about the Q25 engine issue and having just one engine for the whole country. If the event keeps growing, it could turn into a market large enough for a engine manufacturer to come out with a "super .25" and that might not be good for your event in the long run.


Brad,

Thanks for your $.02, I'm new to the racing game. Have been racing some type of .25 club racing locally for seven years at the Texas Wings, a grass field club I started with in 1985. Do to its size (75 to 95 members) and the fact it was started to get away from competition flying our club pylon racing almost died when participation dropped from 8-10 pilots to 3-4 pilots the remaining pilots were not just the fast and winning guys, but overall pilots who still wanted to race. In 2007 I joined FW Thunderbirds a club of 165-200 members that prides itself in promoting all levels of R/C flying from sport fun flys, scale, warbirds, electric, float flys, jets, and electrics, but had no pylon racing of any type for the previous six years. We joined forces in 2007 started promoting our Q-25 Racing Series (2 clubs - 15 pilots plus other area pilots occasionally joining us) and have built it to its current (8 club - 40 registered pilot series). OK, I known that even with all these pilots we still only get 15-24 at most races. Both Clubs now support and appreciate our pylon racing for several reasons: 1) we have more respect and cooperation from our area clubs now, 2) we have made better pilots of some of the sport flyers who now race, 3) our races being spectators to the Clubs and have helped get some new members, 4) we have been able to being some revenue to the Clubs through entry fees and concession sales. We are lucky to fly in the Fort Worth / DALLAS Metroplex area with some many R/C Clubs. We still haven't approached probably half of the clubs because of still trying to get the rules and events fully up to speed (still having growing pains issues with rules, ARF/Kits, engines, plane ID / numbers, etc.) and trying not to grow to fast to soon.

Sorry for the repeat information already in my previous post, but here's where I heading with this. I started this Q-25 Pylon Racing post topic to see if any other clubs were doing this type of club entry racing and to hopefully get some feedback from them. Whether we use our local rules based on a modified version of 424 rules or all racing clubs ban together and try to establish a national set of Q-25 rules. My goal is to keep this club entry level of pylon racing going, whether in our area or to help someone else in the country where sport pilots or want to be racers can have an entry level to start pylon racing.

I also want to thank all of you racers from all levels of competition for your input and comments, you are all greatly appreciated! I never dream I would get this kind of support.

Come on other Q-25 racing groups, let me know what you are doing or what you think!


Gene
Texas Wings / FW Thunderbirds

< Message edited by g.hodgesrc -- 5/3/2009 7:38 PM >


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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/3/2009 3:49 AM   
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Gene, the BuckShot is available through me. I'm considering setting up a website as I also have several other designs covering 1/2A on up. Just taking my time. Early RC Models grew into kind of a monster before I sold it to Wing Mfg with me shiiping almost 300 kits a month! It got where I could not play in my hobby because of assembling kits. So I'm still kind of gun shy.

The BuckShot has performed quite well as it's bigger brother the HoleShot 424. Both won 1st place at the Old Julian Airport races last week with John Gibson flying. I got a second with mine even with mid-airing the last heat!!

I've shipped several around the country so if anyone is interested send me a PM for prices.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/3/2009 4:11 AM   
g.hodgesrc


 

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Ken,

Your engine comments are appreciated. I known in South Texas where Club 40 is going strong they only allow the Thunder Tiger .40 PRO or Super Tiger .40 engines or the novice class runs only the bushing versions of these engines. We are all having issues with stock engine availability. Most of the engine manufacturers have dropped their .25 to build .28, .35, or .36 new engines in recent years. When we started our Q-25 racing in 2007-2008 the most available production engine was the OS .25FX. We had a $100.00 engine with stock expansion chamber muffler cost rule. This rule prevented the MVVS .25 and Webra Speed .25 from being used. To help promote our pylon series we grandfathered in the Magnum .25XL, Thunder Tiger .25PRO, OS .25FSR, and allowed the GMS .25 which wasn't always available. In 2008 about the only engine being used was the OS .25FX. We were going to have a Texas Club 40 / Q-25 Texas State Championship to be run at a central location in Texas so anyone who wanted to race could with these classes running on different days, but the high gas prices ended most of the interest in this event and it was canceled. The point of this was the promoter was only going to allow the OS .25FX engine so we added a note to our 2008 rules that informed everyone starting Q-25 pylon racing should purchase the OS .25FX if they wanted to run the Texas Championship race towards the end of the year. Only one racer wasn't running the OS.25FX in 2008 so we voted to make the OS.25FX the only engine starting in 2009.

I hope the other Q-25 groups will sound off and tell us what engines they allow in their area.

Gene

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/3/2009 6:51 PM   
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be a man!! run the 40's!!! Hehehehe

Well since Club 40 seems dead in central Texas, that's gonna just leave us with the Q25, in the DFW area. Plus the odd NMPRA race here and there. I would not have guessed that Club 40 would have died, like it has, when Chuck had to step down. We have tried to have a couple races in the Houston area, but the weather saw to get both of those called off.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/3/2009 7:08 PM   
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Just a suggestion but, have a fun fly (touch and go, axial rolls, etc) and make sure you are out with the Club 40 planes really set up well and being competitive and then schedule another Club 40 race. A lot of folks think because you race an airframe it isn't a good everyday flyer. When they see what a fun inexpensive flyer it is maybe that will be the stimulus needed. Can't hurt and could be a fun day.

I know clubs and flyers are funny weird.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/3/2009 7:23 PM   
g.hodgesrc


 

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quote:

be a man!! run the 40's!!! Hehehehe


Sorry to hear about Club 40 issues, we are having fun with our race dates as well (rain or high gusting winds have caused one cancellation and lower turn out so far). Now, when I step up to a .40 it will be to run 424, that's when you will really get to laugh . We are still talking about 424 around here since about a third of our pilots want to go faster now. We are being very cautious about going to two classes to soon. Someday when we relocate to our new flying site at the South (there's that South thing again ) end of the lake we might be able to do it. We know we can run 2 pole, but are not sure if we can meet the 3 pole requirements until all the final clearing has been done.

Hang in there I know you are dedicated to the pylon racing cause just like I am and you will get it turned around.

Hope you can come up to Fort Worth soon to race.

Gene

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/4/2009 1:38 AM   
skull1971



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There's a leaning to a 2 pole 424, 608ft. to let the guys come into the faster planes without having to worry about the 3 pole stress.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/4/2009 3:19 AM   
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2 pole 424 was a little scary here last year. I'll race whatever but given my choice I would rather run 3 for 424. In the intrest of getting newer guys going the clubs/individuals hosting races would do well to mix the racecourses up for C40 and Q25 to get time on the more advanced courses and be in the presence of some of the more experienced guys.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/4/2009 4:31 AM   
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Gene, RRCC guys have talked about different fuse kits and I would say general opinion is no problem with figerglass. A lot of us are going to the Seeker with 1 1/8" added to the nose. We have several of these flying now and are about ready to place an order with our laser cutter for more fuse kits. I think we will buy wings from Don he has a good price on sheeted wings. See you at your next race.

JS

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/4/2009 7:22 AM   
g.hodgesrc


 

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quote:

RRCC guys have talked about different fuse kits and I would say general opinion is no problem with fiberglass.


Jerry,

Did your group get to race May 3rd or did the rain cause you to cancel your race? Looks like we will revise our rules to allow the fiberglass fuselage kits. Since I started my Q-25 Pylon Racing thread and asking about fuselage kits for our extra Viper wings the pylon racer kit manufacturers are stepping up and answering the call for more Q-25 & 424 pylon racer kits, fuselage kits, foam cores, and sheeted foam wings. Almost all of the top Q-500 racer manufacturers are bring back their wood fuselage and wood tail kits. They are offering them at very reasonable prices giving us a much larger variety of legal pylon racers, fuselage kits, and wings for our racing. All of these kits are laser cut with tab locking construction so they can be built on any flat surface. Most of them are less than or close to the Viper's cost and you glue it together and don't have to modify anything to have a strong racer.

Here several links:

http://www.houseofpylon.com/Q500/Venom/Venom.aspx (D Stegall supplied wood fuse/Viper wing)
http://www.houseofpylon.com/Q500/Smasher/Smasher.aspx (Don Stegall) fiberglass fuse/foam wing

http://www.supertrc.com/results.asp?category=10 (Seeker & HurriKane) wood fuselage/foam wing

http://www.matneymodels.com/q500.html (Pit Bull & Mad Dog) fiberglass fuselage/foam wing

http://www.sam-rairacing.com/Details.asp?ProdID=26&category=2 (wood fuselage/with sheeted foam wing).

BuckShot: Bob Harris, I designed the BuckShot as an entry model for Quickie 25 racing whereas it is laser cut, tab lock construction and easy to build. It can be built either "V" Tail, "T" Tail or Conventional tail. The rear bulkheads are cut to the correct length and angle so even the "V" tail version will have the zero incidence needed without having to need an incidence guage. It has performed quite well and has proven to be quite tough when those less than perfect landings occur!! I currently sell just the fuselage kit and suggest using Don Stegall as the supplier of the wing either sheeted of foam core as Don does a great job on both.

There are a couple of manufactures talking about modifying some of their current fiberglass fuselages to except the Viper wing. Don Stegall offers his lighter Viper airfoil wing and he also has a Seeker wing. I bought one of his Seeker sheeted wings for my Seeker kit its light and very well build. Several of our guys have bought the BuckShot kit and Venom kits. I'm looking forward to racing against them.

Gene

< Message edited by g.hodgesrc -- 5/4/2009 7:30 AM >


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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/4/2009 7:40 AM   
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Eric,

Whats the set back requirements for 424 using the .40 engine? I still favor the 2 pole, but at 608' wouldn't you have to use flaggers or lights since the pilots would be offset closer to pylon #1 on 2 pole?

Gene

< Message edited by g.hodgesrc -- 5/4/2009 7:43 AM >


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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/4/2009 11:46 AM   
daven



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Setback is 300 foot from the nearest pylon for both the pits and the spectators.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/4/2009 8:39 PM   
skull1971



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Yep like Dave said, really Ive flown it and it seems the same as your 400ft once you get use to it. 2 pole every thing would be exactly the same except your spotter will need to have better eyesite. Gene to put it in something you already know,, my runway is 600ft, and you know how easy it is to run down it.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/5/2009 1:35 AM   
g.hodgesrc


 

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Thanks Dave & Eric.

We have been using a setback distance of 325' from pylon centerline to spectators as per our original waiver for Q-25 from the AMA in 2007. So it looks like we have that distance covered already. We would just have to adjust from our current 450' 2 pole course length (we use 450' instead of 400' to give a little more reaction time for first timers) and a 608' 2 pole length if I have all the numbers right. Yes Eric, I do remember running down your runway last May.

What are the other clubs using for a 2 pole course length?

Gene

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/5/2009 4:45 AM   
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Lots of us are using the course that you will find in AMA document 540-B. Well, actually, I am just trying to get something started around here, Columbus, IN.

I do understand that many Q-25 groups use a course length of 425 feet.

Ken Erickson


Edited to correct 435 to 425!!!

< Message edited by Ken Erickson -- 5/6/2009 2:38 AM >


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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/5/2009 8:27 AM   
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Thanks Ken and good luck with getting your pylon racing established!

Gene

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/6/2009 1:54 AM   
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You just give me the word Gene and we might be able to pull a few guys together and come up and run'em.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/6/2009 10:02 PM   
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Gene, yes we got the May 3rd race in. Clouds were a little low but wind was 5-8 out of the NW so racing conditions were good. The conditions must have been good as I won the day, whats that about blind hogs and acorns. Gene several years ago at a Georgetown C-40 race 6-8 of us also brought along a 424 plane. What we wanted to know was how would a 424 do on a 400' course we were using for C-40. We had a mix of pilots from so so rans like myself to guys who fly 428 and 422 class. After trying it we all decided that at 400' the course was to short. We moved the poles out to 450' and everone agreed that this was a do able course length. 600' seems to me to be a very long course. AMA considers one minute to be a fast course time and two minutes to be a slow course. I would think the 424 class would be for more advanced plyon racers who want to fly faster and quicker course times, if not then whats the point just fly Q-25. Anyway just my 2 cents worth on course length.

JS

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/7/2009 2:54 AM   
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Yes...all the 424 pilots that flew in the Waco demonstration last year agreed the 450' course was fun. There will be some fields that don't have the real estate available for a 600' course and the buffer zone around the pylons on each end of the course.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/7/2009 8:22 AM   
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Hello Jim,

Good to hear from you again. I catch your other posts from time to time and I hope everything is OK. I have never tried the 435' course, but if I remember right we flew 425' (split the two distances) at Waco for the Club 40 /Q-25 Challenge race. That distance sure made things interesting for both classes!

Like Jerry stated, watching the 424 demo at Waco on 425' was wild, I can't imagine 424 on 400'. When we first started we were using 500' which made Q-25 a little to boring, but at 400' most of the new comers were having a lot of trouble with how fast the pylon came so we opened the course to 450'. This gives a little extra time, but keeps the speed more exciting with laps between 8-11 seconds. All of us in North Texas are racing 450' going on three years now.

Thanks to you and J Staff both.

Gene

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/7/2009 9:52 PM   
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Well the AMA rule book shows the set up for .40 size 2-pole using a 660ft course. Plus I have been told the the Dist 8 rules talked about the 608ft. Rules are rules,,, BUT!!! I'd be more for the 450ft race's and watch the crash-up derby!!!

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/7/2009 10:53 PM   
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Sorry, I'm going off topic also. I think a topic needs to be created for 424 on a 2 pole course.

I ran 424 on the 400' two pole course at Lowe's Motor Speedway last year for 3 races. Not doing it this year. It was too exciting for the helpers and the club officials.

I wasn't using setbacks that were 330' either.

The RCPRO Warbird course gets waivers approved all the time. See RCPRO Warbird Racing - Rules and scroll down to the course diagram.

Chuck Waller, Jim Rice, and others got the Set-Back Distances For Sport Pylon Racing approved by the AMA Executive Council. This was a great success for Club 40 and Quickie 25. I have heard from many organizers about the large help this has been for them.

If someone will put forth the effort to create (and test) a better course for 2 pole AMA 424 than what is in the R/C Pylon Racing Rules and submit it to the proper people, waivers could be avoided. The proper group would probably be the contest board since 424 is a rulebook event. Club 40 and Quickie 25 weren't and that's why the EC acted on the 540-B effort. Consider that the current rulebook course has to accommodate 428 on a 2 pole course. Smaller setbacks are surely possible for 424.

Because of Club 40 and Quickie 25, there are a number of people wanting to try 424 on a 2 pole course. Either the NMPRA can step up, or once again, another group will. Come on NMPRA guys, take a leadership role.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/8/2009 2:05 PM   
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One thing I should add is that several years ago I tested several different courses for AMA 424 on a 2 pole course.

The best course I found was a 525' course with about 250' setbacks from the pilots. This is the same distance as the AMA Short course and times are right about the same. I believe most fiields that can fit the 400' course can possibly fit this course as well unless they are real tight. The nice thing about this course is that it is not too long to run Cluib 40 and Quickie 25 on at the same contest. I liked it enough that I put markers in the ground for it on my field.

How about some of you guys trying it and reporting back.

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/8/2009 10:51 PM   
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Gene early in this thread you were talking about everyone getting together on standards for Q-25 class racing. I think in Texas we are on the same rules, I know you and I worked together to get the Dalllas/ft. Worth groups on the same page. I was on a 3 week road trip in April and I noticed that Doug Bebensee's group were going to have a C-40 race in Nashville. I emailed Doug and found their rules were the same as we were using in Texas so I got out my C-40 plane dusted it off and made their race, had a great time. Maybe with Dons help we can get the Carolina guys and others together so were ever you go you can go to a race. 424 legal plane, with min. wieght 3lbs 4 oz. and OS FX 25. What do you think Don?

JS

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RE: Q-25 Pylon Racing - 5/8/2009 11:23 PM   
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Jerry,

As Club 40 was growing, the Texas group was the more active group. Ken Erickson and Chuck Waller were very active in the start-up of Club 40 in Texas. Ken moved and Chuck was the district safety officer. He was very interested in promoting Club 40. So I formed the RCPRO Club 40 Racing Committee and made Chuck the Chairman. He recruited people from various ares to be on the committee and decisions were made and published. Chuck was a great point-of-contact. Unfortunately Chuck had to become inactive this year. Ken is busy working on groups in Indiana, but he is going to take on the chairmanship for Club 40.

I have proposed a RCPRO Quickie 25 Racing Committee to Gene. I think he is showing leadership with the forum activities and obviously what he has done in Texas. So maybe it is time to start that committee and get it rolling.

The Carolina group has a web site at www.pylonracing.org and they have the rules there. I have to admit, the SPRA and I have been a little at odds over Club 40 because they did not accept the "national" rules at www.Club40Racing.com ... I'm running races in Charlotte and it would not look right for me not to be using the rules of RCPRO Club 40 Racing. We had a race at www.OldJulianAirport.com and the www.Club40racing.com rules were in effect. But every plane also met the SPRA rules other than some people tried props other than the APC 9x6. Which was ironic considering that it is the best prop for the AMA Short Course.

While RCPRO has forums, they are mostly used for committee communications. The vast majority of racers and pilots are here on RCU and this is where we need to herd people to.

< Message edited by DonStegall -- 5/8/2009 11:24 PM >


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