Sullivan SkyWriter Smoke System  
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Sullivan SkyWriter Smoke System - 6/16/2003 7:06:18 AM   
BuschBarber


 

Posts: 782
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		My Dynaflite PT19, with RCS180 gase motor, has been equipped with the Sullivan SkyWriter smoke system. From what I have read here, it compares well with the TME and the Slimline smoke pumps. It is microprocesor controlled so it can plug into a spare channel, be slowed down or speeded up using ATV, and the Smoke channel can be coupled with the throttle channel so the pump will slow down at Idle and speed up at High speed.

The problem is, it doesn't smoke. Here is the plumbing diagram:
I am using large yellow tygon from the Overflow in the tank to the Overflow line on the bottom of the fuselage. I have large yellow tygon running from the Clunk line, to a filter, checkvalve, and the Input on the pump. The Output on the pump goes to the smoke nipple, on the Bisson side mount smoke muffler, using black neoprene type tubing.

I have gotten it smoke intermittently, but not consistently. last week, when I had the tee in the line. It would smoke when I turned it on in flight, but when I turned it off and on, it would not smoke again, or it wouId puff some smoke and quit. called Sullivan and they told me to take the tee (that goes to the fill line) out of the path and use a 3rd line to the tank. This tee was in the line between the tank and the pump, ahead of the filter.

Now, since I pulled out the tee and go straight to the filter, when I turn on the smoke pump, without the engine on, smoke oil pours out of the muffler. When I start the engine, no smoke and no raw oil comes out of the muffler. I shut down the engine, and smoke oil pours out of the muffler. Either something is stopping the pump when the engine is running or the checkvalve is blocking the flow when the engine is running. The Sullivan checkvalve is just an aluminum tube with a spring and a ball bearing at one end. It is alligned in the proper direction.

Other than that, I have no clue as to why it won't work.
       Post #: 1

help - 6/16/2003 11:50:58 AM   
SKYBLAZER1


 

Posts: 39
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Everett, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Remove the check valve. Check valves are the biggest pains in my ass for smoke, just think about it when you are about 10-15 seconds before smoke is required...dropp throttle to half, go smoke on (to prime)...when you see smoke open throttle to full...smoke on.

Using this method will in fact help you decipher "using the Sherlock Holmes deductive reasoning" theory whether or not it is in fact the check valve...I'm pretty sure this is it, but if not this is a painless and fun way to find out if it is.

And so I sit here, smoking my pipe (Or is my pipe smoking...do I have fluid, no what? the heck...

_____________________________

It's a bird!...No! it's a plane!...no...it's a, LOOK OUT!

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 2

smoke - 6/17/2003 8:52:06 PM   
dirtybird


 

Posts: 3084
Joined: 1/25/2002
From: Mesa, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Has anyone used the Bennet smoke system?

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 3

Bennet (B+B) Smoke System - 6/17/2003 10:42:48 PM   
BuschBarber


 

Posts: 782
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		I currently have it installed on an 87" Ohio Extra 300 with a 3W60 motor. It works great.

I can't use it (or at least RCS does not recommend using it) with my RCS180 or my ZDZ50. There is no room to put in a crankcase pressure nipple.

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 4

Re: Bennet (B+B) Smoke System - 6/19/2003 4:56:39 AM   
dirtybird


 

Posts: 3084
Joined: 1/25/2002
From: Mesa, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuschBarber
I currently have it installed on an 87" Ohio Extra 300 with a 3W60 motor. It works great.

I can't use it (or at least RCS does not recommend using it) with my RCS180 or my ZDZ50. There is no room to put in a crankcase pressure nipple. [/QUOTE]

I installed my crankcase pressure nipple on my Moki (for a Cline pressure system} the way C&H does it by drilling thru the motor mount flange directly into the crankcase. This would not interfere with the back plate rotor on a ZDZ or RCS. There is also plenty of metal to thread in to to mount the nipple.

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 5

Sullivan SkyWriter Smoke System - 6/19/2003 7:45:03 AM   
Doug Brindle


 

Posts: 97
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: GREENWOOD, IN, USA
Status: offline 		I bought a sullivan too. I haven't run it IN a plane yet... but I've run it on the bench, hooked up to a D and B 61cc. Works fine, but I have a TME style check valve between the muffler and the pump, it's located about three inches away from the muffler - between the black tubing and the yellow tubing.

I have two TME pumps... i bought the second after the first pump started leaking after about 7 gallons of smoke oil went thru it. I've talked to others who have the same problem with the TME.... one guy said don't "mount" the TME using the mounting flange - just pack it in the bottom of the plane wrapped in foam rubber like a receiver.

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 6

Sullivan Skywriter - 6/19/2003 8:05:46 AM   
BuschBarber


 

Posts: 782
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		Well - I am thoroughly frustrated, now. I spoke to Sullivan and they thought it was my Bisson muffler. I pulled off the AntiSyphon valve and still no smoke, or at least just a short burst.

If I hold the engine at idle and then turn on the smoke, it will smoke sometimes, but when I go to full throttle, the smoke quickly stops.

I pulled off the line to the muffler, and let it hang.Engine off and oil pumps out. Engine on and no oil. Engine at idle, turn on smoke, oil pumps, but when I go to full throttle, oil quickly stops pumping.

This tells me that the muffler is not the problem, but the engine vibration may be affecting the pump.

Pump is gooped to the bottom of the fuselage, just behind the firewall, and lower than the engine. Tank is 6" behind the firewall, even with the carb, and just above the wing saddle, over the CG.

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 7

try this - 6/19/2003 8:41:42 AM   
Doug Brindle


 

Posts: 97
Joined: 1/6/2002
From: GREENWOOD, IN, USA
Status: offline 		I don't think "gooping" the pump to the plane is a good idea... vibration is never good for electronics.

I'll suggest this....

un-goop the pump from the plane fuse, just lay the pump inside the plane, maybe wrap in foam....or, if you can, just hold the pump in your hand- and run the engine and test the system. If you get it working, then you'll know the vibration is hurting you.

How "slow" have you got the pump programmed? I spent about two hours playing around with the programming for the variable speed - changing everything twice just to see what all I could make it do.... maybe your not pumping "hard enough", and can't overcome the muffler back pressure into the fluid line? Crank up the pump to the max pumping speed no matter the throttle position, and go from there.

I also think it will help to put a check valve between the muffler and the pump. I've starting putting a check valve on both sides of the pump - helps to reduce/eliminate the loss of prime.

Good luck, and keep us informed about your trials and tribulations.

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 8

Sullivan SkyWriter - 6/19/2003 4:03:03 PM   
BuschBarber


 

Posts: 782
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		I agree that the most likely culprit is the vibration. The Sullivan pump has mounting lugs at it's base and Sullivan does not indicate that you should mount it on foam or rubber, however, this unit may have loose connections, or vibration may be disrupting the prime.

The reason I ruled out the muffler is that the pump behaves the same whether or not it is connected to the muffler. I can see the flow stopping after a few seconds of high throttle as the delivery tube is hanging out of the cowl and dripping on the ground. What I can't determine is whether or not the pump rpm is dropping or whether or not it is just loosing it's prime.

When I first hooked up the pump, I had a tee in the line between the tank and the pump. I primed the pump, started the engine, and got smoke. When I flew the plane, I turned on the pump and got smoke as long as I kept the pump on, but if I shut it off and on again, no smoke. It has been a week and a half and I have bee trying suggestions from people like yourself and Sullivan.

I bought a TME checkvalve from the local hobbyshop, however, it was the last one in town. I will put the original Sullivan checkvalve back in the line before the pump and I will put the TME checkvalve between the pump and the muffler. I will unmouint the pump and wrap it in foam. I will call Sullivan, to confirm.

I am using a 4.8 vollt nicad 1000Mah battery and the ATV on the smoke channel 8 is at max. I am assuming that a 6 v battery will not give me anymore speed in the pump?

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 9

Bennet smoke system - 6/20/2003 11:06:04 PM   
dirtybird


 

Posts: 3084
Joined: 1/25/2002
From: Mesa, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		I ordered and received a Bennet smoke system. It has a 1/4 pressure nipple to install. I called Bennet and was told you cannot use a smaller one. I can see now why RCS does not reccommend it for thier motors. Its going to be a major job to install it on my G45. You also need a 1/4" line to the smoke tank from the pump. Not something you can get from your LHS. If you are thinking about using this system, send in your motor to have him install the pressure nipple($9.95) and get his smoke tank.

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 10

Sullivan SkyWriter Smoke System - 6/21/2003 5:46:28 AM   
2 Piece


 

Posts: 214
Joined: 2/27/2002
From: Winchester, VA, USA
Status: offline 		I don't want to sound ignorant here (oops to late...). But could it be possible that the pressure in the muffler is greater than the smoke pump pressure, thus not allowing the smoke fluid to enter the muffler when engine is running?

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 11

Sullivan Skywriter - 6/21/2003 7:00:05 AM   
BuschBarber


 

Posts: 782
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		That would be a good guess if it weren't for the fact that the pump exhibits the same problems when not connected to the muffler.

Sullivan now tells me that the antisyphon valve should be placed between the muffler and the pump (contrary to what the instructions say, but consistant with what others are saying).

They say the pump can be upside down or rightside up, and it does not have to be shock mounted. They say I can use up to a 10v battery. They think that my computer radio is mixing the throttle and the smoke channel 8. I can find no evidence of that, but I will put the smoke on the gear switch just to verify.

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 12

Just a thought...... - 6/22/2003 12:35:21 AM   
elderair



Posts: 317
Joined: 1/16/2002
From: Plattsburg, MO, USA
Status: offline 		I have just installed a Sullivan and haven't tried it out yet in flight but..... when installing it I noticed that when the ck. valve is installed per the drawing they send that it is installed backwards. In otherwords if you install the ck valve with the o'ring on the ck. valve body towards the smoke pump it stops the flow of smoke fluid from coming from the pickup in the tank. Turn the ck. valve around and see if it works. With the ck. valve installed per the drawings you may get just a little burst of smoke at first which would be the fluid that you pulled into the pump to prime it. My pump pumps fine on the bench with the ck valve turned in the correct direction!!! See what happens. That ck. valve is only intended to keep the fluid from siphoning back INTO the tank when the pump is off and keep the line to the pump primed. When installed as shown in the drawing it will let the fluid go back into the tank from the pump but not out of the tank to the pump. I'm not sure if I got the only ck valve with the o'ring on the wrong end or if the drawing is just messed up but there will be a lot of confused people over this one. Just throw the directions away and use common sense! Let me know if this helps your problem, Kent.

_____________________________

The only time you can have too much fuel is when you are on fire!

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 13

Sullivan Skywriter - 6/22/2003 7:45:35 AM   
BuschBarber


 

Posts: 782
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline 		I went to a local model meet in Phelps, NY, today. Some of the guys there were interested in the pump and listened to the details as to how I was diagnosing the problems I was having.

The last note I got from Sullivan said to ignore the instructions that came with the pump and put the checkvalve between the pump and the muffler. This is contrary to the instructions that came with the pump, but consistant with the suggestions that I was given by people on this site and the GSAL list that I get email from.

Anyway, I put the checkvalve between the pump and the muffler, with the Oring on the muffler side. When I tried the pump, with the engine off, the pump ran but there was no flow of oil. I blew through the fill line to the tank, but it just came back out into my mouth. I left the engine off and blew through the fill line, with the overflow plugged and turned on the pump. Oil came out the muffler. I started the engine and at idle, I turned on the pump. I got smoke. As I advanced the throttle, I got more smoke, however I was blowing a lot of unburnt oil, as well. I cut the pump speed back to half, and everything worked great. I turned the pump off and on and I still got smoke. I flew the plane and got smoke everytime.

I am disappointed that in all my discussions with Sullivan, they did not mention that the checkvalve instructions were wrong, as I was very detailed with regards to how my plumbing was set up for each test. I am glad that it is finally working reliably, however, we will see tomorrow if I get the same results.

Is there a better way to prime the pump without having to blow through the fill line and risk getting oil in my mouth?

(in reply to BuschBarber)
       Post #: 14

Prime - 6/24/2003 9:12:16 AM