Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (Full Version)

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AA5BY -> Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/26/2009 9:21 PM)

I read the leader to the article about why some are not upgrading and several points were made such as not wanting to reprogram a new transmitter or invest in a new transmitter.

I confess I did not go to the article at the time it popped up and haven't gotten another opportunity to find it but I was left surprised that the reason most often articulated at our field was not mentioned in the leader.... that many simply have too many receivers to replace.



AA5BY -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/26/2009 9:30 PM)

Hmmm, I'll respond to my own post... Found the thread and see that it was more of an advertisement that high end Futaba transmitters can be upgraded to 2.4 and thus saving the investment of an expensive radio. Mentioning that upgrading the transmitter would require new receivers was probably not in the best interest of the article.



Bernowt -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/26/2009 10:34 PM)

My reason:
72 & 75 MHz still work just fine. [&:]



Sir Raleigh -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/27/2009 2:54 AM)

Can't afford it, and 72 MHz works just fine for me.

Bill



JPMacG -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/27/2009 2:59 AM)

I will go to 2.4 some day. Right now I don't want to replace my Tx and 8 fm receivers. I fly in a small club. So far (in hobby for 11 years) I have had no problem with 72 MHz.



JollyPopper -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/27/2009 3:58 AM)

Same two reasons here. My 72 MHz equipment works just fine and I can't afford to replace it all. And God bless all the folks jumping into the 2.4 stampede. It's leaving the 72 MHz. channels wide open. [:D] I can almost be assured when I go to the field now nobody will be on the channels I am using. No chance of my shooting them down and no chance they will shoot me down. It's working out fine for all of us.[;)]



tadawson -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/27/2009 4:24 AM)

My reason: I fly mainly on 50MHz as a Ham operator, and do not want to give up the pretty much private frequencies at the field, as well as the right to legally work on my own gear.

- Tim



snappa -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/27/2009 5:05 AM)

Buy a 10C then, you can use both



redfox435cat -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/27/2009 9:18 AM)

A few are leery of 2.4 because of the shortfalls of the first generation gear. The first generation stuff had very limited range and allot of problems syncing and locking out with interference, of course these problems have been alleviated with the new gear but you know what they say about first impressions. As for me it's simply a cost issue, at 100 bucks a receiver I'd be dropping well over a grand in converting everything over so it's just not gonna happen for some time, though I'll get one eventually and transfer over time, I have no issue programming my systems so that not a problem, it just the time involved



ronwc -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/27/2009 7:38 PM)

Many reasons for me not jumping on 2.4 -

I have about 30 planes i fly and can't afford 30 rx's

Never really had any problems with 72 mhz (after 45 years) - never really had an problem with AM for that matter - still fly an EK on 26.995 and many Kraft AM single sticks, narrow band with Hitec AM rx's

I have seen many crashes lately (for whatever reason) with 2.4

If i were new getting in the hobby or I flew at an completely unregualted filed, I would probably go with the 2.4 -





tankertoad -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/27/2009 9:43 PM)

I just changed over to 2.4 (Futaba 9c with Spektrum Module) and I'm beginning to be sorry I did. My first near-loss was in a 60 size 3d electric running a BEC on a seperate lipo (I know, defeats the purpose, but it's a temp set up) When I ran it on a 4.8v nicad, I think it had a voltage drop and caused a "brown-out". I was able to get it on the ground and hence, switched to the lipo.
I was also running 2.4 in my 50cc and it locked out for 3-5 seconds before it picked back up. It was pure luck the plane wasn't in an attitude that I couldn't recover from in the amount of time I had after the signal came back. I'm pretty sure I know why it happened in the smaller plane, but I can't figure out why it happened in the bigger plane (plenty of volts, antenna placement per the spec..what else?).

I've only had 2.4 for 2 weeks and I nearly lost over $2K in airplanes because of it. I can't believe I still have my planes and I'm not sure where to go from here. Switch at your own risk.



blvdbuzzard -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/27/2009 10:19 PM)

The only reason I went 2.4 was I was out of memory slots for my two RD6000, Radiant and was looking for something to replace them. I have now bought five 2.4 Rx's for a total of (8). I am swapping out the 72m for the 2.4 Rx's on my helicopters. I have (1) RDS8000 for helicopters and anther one for fixed wing. I have the RD6000 and the Radiant for smaller planes and so on. All of my stuff has work very well. I have had no real issue with 72, AM or FM. For me it was all about wanting more memory slots.


Dru.



tankertoad -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/27/2009 11:25 PM)

I'm hearing that you shouldn't use NiMH or NiCad for the RX on a giant scale. The RX re-boots when the voltage drops below a point. Lithium is the direction I'm looking to go.



onewasp -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 1:53 AM)

He really asked for REASONS !!!!!!

NOT excuses.
All I see here are misunderstandings and "whistling in the dark".
Yep, the $$$ are real but over rated as you could go 2.4GHz SS on new stuff and stay with the 50/72 MHz with your existing Tx/Rx combos. Currently the "used" price locally is "YOU CANNOT GIVE IT AWAY !!!"
The guys I talk to from all across the country tell me it is the same in their areas
We didn't have a single HAM who did not switch to Spektrum at once.

I switched from six and 72 synthesized the day Spektrum was announced !!!!
I've been Mode 1 since digital Propo was announced so I had to wait two weeks for the Mode 1 availability.
My 10X plus all Rx's were gone in 24 hours So all I had to do was plug in and fly.
[:)][8D][:D] _)____and I'm STILL flying! Not even a hiccup.

That was 2006 and I still haven't seen or heard of a local flier (we have many clubs) who has "gone in" on 2.4 GHz. While I fly Spektrum that includes the FASST systems too, even though they were "late to the party".

Believe what you wish, _____BUT y'all are way out of date and in some cases totally misinformed!

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink !



tankertoad -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 2:19 AM)

You're looking at a flier who almost "went in" twice in 2 weeks, on two seperate planes. What I'm learning in this process is voltage, voltage, voltage. Spektrum doesn't tolerate voltage drops caused by big loads from big servos. When you upgrade to 2.4, you have to get serious with your batteries, or you will lose your plane.



Sir Raleigh -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 2:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tankertoad

You're looking at a flier who almost "went in" twice in 2 weeks, on two seperate planes. What I'm learning in this process is voltage, voltage, voltage. Spektrum doesn't tolerate voltage drops caused by big loads from big servos. When you upgrade to 2.4, you have to get serious with your batteries, or you will lose your plane.
Hummm..... More money to spend.

Bill



8178 -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 3:00 AM)

Has anyone noticed that the latest Tower Talk as two full pages of 72 stuff including a 72 10C and NO DISCOUNTS!! All the discounts are on the 2.4 stuff on the next pages. What’s up with that?



onewasp -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 3:01 AM)

tankertoad,

YOU are quite misinformed !!!!!

Spektrum reboots faster than you can click a stop watch.
It was a problem for a very few (those who didn't size batteries properly or who don't check their systems prior to flight, though I have only read of it. I have NEVER seen it nor have we had it occur locally. We still have generation one {firmware}Spektrums flying daily.

I fly a full load of high end digitals and have done so since they came out!
NO PROBLEM. We have a 35% Bipe flying DX7 and all digitals on 4.8Volts without problems (I happen to use A123)

Seriously, I feel that the problem is with the operator in your case____simply the way it computes
You have been at this 4 years according to your profile so some reading is in order for you.
I don't wish to seem overly harsh to someone so new to the hobby, but you simply have neither the credentials nor the experience to make a radio system judgment.

Look up XJet and go to his site on 2.4GHz and study it. He is an RF Engineer who is also an RC'r That is an unusual combination!

I will post back with the exact site so that you can get up to date. Even then you will need to keep reading as you can't define SS in a few pages. It is unique. It is the state of the art in RC.


Edit addition: Here is the link I promised: be certain to click forward at the end of each page.
http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/spreadspectrum01.shtml

Here also is a link on the Quick Connect Firmware update (note the date. This is over two months AFTER it was first available:http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7080754/anchors_7080754/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#7080754

Yet another site: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1038506



RegFlyer -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 3:26 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 8178

Has anyone noticed that the latest Tower Talk as two full pages of 72 stuff including a 72 10C and NO DISCOUNTS!! All the discounts are on the 2.4 stuff on the next pages. What’s up with that?

2.4 is a hot item to sell, alota people are making the switch becouse they dont have to worry about getting there planes highjacked. i know i did. with alota people wanting the 2.4 they are going to offer good discounts. it the same with cars when the new models come out the dealerships offer cash back or imployee pricing.



tankertoad -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 5:07 AM)

You're right. I am misinformed. I thought 2.4 was supposed to work.

I've done plenty of reading. THAT'S why I made the switch. I don't really care HOW it works, I only have to know THAT it works, with confidence, and that I am operating it properly.

It seems like there are two schools of people here: Those who have seen problems with 2.4 and those who havent.

Those who have are at least offering suggestions on how to correct what I experienced. Those who haven't seem to be in denial that it could happen.

I make my living flight testing for the Gov't. If I had a nickel for every time an engineer told me "that can't happen, it wasn't DESIGNED that way", I wouldn't have to work for Uncle Sam.

I am sticking with 2.4 because I believe it IS the future and better in every way, but I can't deny that I have experienced something with this system that should be better understood and better addressed. I am contemplating what changes I will make to ensure it never happens again. Here WAS my set up when it failed:

Batt: Expert 2700mah nimh on a heavy-duty switch.
Tx/Rx: Spektrum DSM2 Airmod on a Futaba 9C/AR7000 remote Rx spaced on 12"extension mounted 90 degrees off the primary Rx
Servos: 5 Digital/High-torque
Battery condition after failure: Batt volts - 6.5 used 370 Mah
Plane was pointed at me, at ~300 ft, wings level, pitch level. I lost control for 3-5 secs. The plane went to fail safe. The throttle went to idle and the nose dropped until at about 200 ft, I was able to re-gain control and land.

Should I have not had a loss of signal? Absolutely. Did I have one for longer than it takes to click a stop watch? Absolutely.

If it wasn't a low voltage re-boot, then what was it? I'll gladly take any suggestions on my set up. I'd hate to spend a huge amount of $ on A123s and a battery redundant RX if I don't have to.

My apologies for sounding short or giving the impression that I have any clue what is going on with my set-up. I'm not and I don't. That's why I'm here.



da Rock -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 5:32 AM)

I've seen a number of what looked like low voltage reboots. Actually, they looked like momentary fail-safes as well. Or loss of signal. All 2.4s......

Good thing, is that although I've got TOO MANY RX's ......... the more of you guys who switch over, the less who'll give me a conflict on my frequencies.

I've got over 10 RXs and don't plan to go 2.4 until my 8103 and my 7202 give me some reason to.

Remember when we had to convert our radios to narrower bands? I took that one in the ear. Radios back then couldn't handle multiple models unless you rigged the models the same. And upgrading was chaos and cost. So I dropped out for years. Made some decent money selling my models back then. Got some good ones now, too.



onewasp -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 5:56 AM)

#1 Check the Rx to make certain that it has the QC feature. The middle QC site I posted should tell you how. My GUESS you do not.

Reason because if you had you would have the blinking lights upon landing AND it would not have taken seconds to reconnect. The reconnect (reboot) very likely would have precluded any 'failsafe' from appearing ___ yes, it is that fast!

Also it is only through a 'hold' that you would experience a 'failsafe'.
You can check (prove) that with the Spektrum Flight Log which will show 'fades', 'frame losses' and 'holds' following each flight. A $25 expenditure but well justified here.
Particularly where we are trying to ID "ghosts, from gremlins and potential installation problems."

What you describe has been posted here many times (how many of those are accurate I have no way of knowing.) I know that we've had zero recorded since 2006 and we have an unholy number of Spektrum (primarily) and FASST systems (secondary in number) in operation.

However we have only a handful of 'conversions' operating and those are all JR converted to Spektrum. Both the 10X and the XP9303. But zero Futaba to Spektrum.


I fly Precision and have recently (last summer) converted to electric. So I have hands on experience with all power modes.
I fly a bunch and have taken the various installations to the limit of visual orientation and then put it on the deck AND pointed the antenna (worst case operation). Rock steady all aircraft, all power modes ALL THE TIME!!!!!

We have quite a number of newbies on Spektrum (dedicated) and so far not one has had a problem. They all have followed the more experienced fliers regarding battery size and voltage. Virtually all of our "performance fliers" have been on 6volts for quite some time. I vastly favor the A123 unregulated, however that doesn't 'seem' to be your problem. At least not so far.
Under what load was your voltage after landing taken?

Did you do the conversion or did someone else?

Your ground range should be 60 Paces with the antenna pointed and the bind button depressed. In fact I get more than double that. That is both the DX7 and the X9303 which I am presently flying.
JR/Spektrum are well known for extensive range characteristics. As I have owned JR since 1981 I am not familiar with Futaba characteristics on a first hand basis but I do know the Factory (not Hobbico/Tower) but actual Futaba employees. They are a class act.

I don't care how many Gov't. tests you've participated in ______ READ the bloody articles I cited!!!!!




sgtmike74 -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 1:55 PM)

I've been using a RD8000 that hasn't failed me yet. I guess if they ever make it mandatory to switch then I will, until then I'll just keep on flying.



HavinFun -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 3:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tankertoad

You're right. I am misinformed. I thought 2.4 was supposed to work.

I've done plenty of reading. THAT'S why I made the switch. I don't really care HOW it works, I only have to know THAT it works, with confidence, and that I am operating it properly.

It seems like there are two schools of people here: Those who have seen problems with 2.4 and those who havent.

Those who have are at least offering suggestions on how to correct what I experienced. Those who haven't seem to be in denial that it could happen.

I make my living flight testing for the Gov't. If I had a nickel for every time an engineer told me "that can't happen, it wasn't DESIGNED that way", I wouldn't have to work for Uncle Sam.

I am sticking with 2.4 because I believe it IS the future and better in every way, but I can't deny that I have experienced something with this system that should be better understood and better addressed. I am contemplating what changes I will make to ensure it never happens again. Here WAS my set up when it failed:

Batt: Expert 2700mah nimh on a heavy-duty switch.
Tx/Rx: Spektrum DSM2 Airmod on a Futaba 9C/AR7000 remote Rx spaced on 12"extension mounted 90 degrees off the primary Rx
Servos: 5 Digital/High-torque
Battery condition after failure: Batt volts - 6.5 used 370 Mah
Plane was pointed at me, at ~300 ft, wings level, pitch level. I lost control for 3-5 secs. The plane went to fail safe. The throttle went to idle and the nose dropped until at about 200 ft, I was able to re-gain control and land.

Should I have not had a loss of signal? Absolutely. Did I have one for longer than it takes to click a stop watch? Absolutely.

If it wasn't a low voltage re-boot, then what was it? I'll gladly take any suggestions on my set up. I'd hate to spend a huge amount of $ on A123s and a battery redundant RX if I don't have to.

My apologies for sounding short or giving the impression that I have any clue what is going on with my set-up. I'm not and I don't. That's why I'm here.

I will also be going with the Spektrum module in my 9C soon. From what everybody at the field tells me & from what I've read the spektrum antennae should be folded over & not pointing straight at your aircraft. In your setup you did not mention the position of your antennae, perhaps this might be the case ?



tankertoad -> RE: Reason for not upgrading to 2.4 (4/28/2009 4:46 PM)

I checked for the firmware update. The Rx comes back on with solid lights (no flashing) about 1-2 secs after cycling power. It sounds like what I experienced was indeed common under specific conditions. My system is headed back to Horizon for the update.

onewasp - your guess seems right on. I tested voltage while cycling servos, although I'm sure the airload on the surfaces puts way more load than what I can get on the ground.

havinfun - I keep my Tx antenna at the 45. Since I don't have the updated firmware, I'm leaning toward thinking that was the most likely cause.

One thing I noticed when going from 72 to 2.4 was how much more precise the control feel was. I had to adjust my rates/expos after the first flight with Spektrum. What I probably never noticed was how much voltage drop I was getting with my old set up since 72 tolerates it.

onewasp - Thanks for the mention of A123s. It confirms my decision to go with a better battery set up.

Final resolution - Upgrade batteries - Update firmware.

Thanks to all for the spirited and educational discussion!!



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