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All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> Engine Conversions >> RE: xyz cdi
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RE: xyz cdi - 6/12/2009 3:53 PM   
tkg


 

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ORIGINAL: combatpilot

quote:

If the timing is to far advanced, like 35 + deg BTDC then it may develop a HS speed miss, almost like it is to rich. BUT you can't tune it out using the carb needles.


That would be as not set dead on 28 degrees right????

Ok lets say just for argument sake that it is set spot on 28 degrees just like its supposed to be.  At that point wouldnt you look at the carb????

thanks for the info Ralph

The carb is a simple adjustment so go there first. But if it doesn't help the HS miss, the timing COULD be a problem, also weak ignition, bad spark plug, weak battery, bad switch and so on.


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RE: xyz cdi - 6/12/2009 4:22 PM   
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Status: offline 		Ive changed the plug and gaped it at 25. The battery has a full charge Iam missing something and cant figure it out. Let see if i am doing this right.  I start with the piston set at top dead center and set the degree wheel to read 0 and rotate the engine ccw to read 28 degrees and lock it down if that is right then i did it right right?

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/12/2009 4:34 PM   
michael wood


 

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Status: offline 		just a dumb question but does the enging cylinder head have to be up when you set the timming I think I set the timming with the enging inverted  michael 

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/12/2009 8:05 PM   
tkg


 

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ORIGINAL: michael wood

Ive changed the plug and gaped it at 25. The battery has a full charge Iam missing something and cant figure it out. Let see if i am doing this right.  I start with the piston set at top dead center and set the degree wheel to read 0 and rotate the engine ccw to read 28 degrees and lock it down if that is right then i did it right right?

 TDC is where the pistion has traveled as far as it can go toward the spark plug. The position of the engine has nothing to do with TDC.
Find TDC, set the degree wheel to 0. Hook up the ignition, turn on the battery switch. Rotate the engine CCW until the ignition fires. When it sparks, check the degree wheel and see what it reads. Adjust the timing until it fires at the desired timing when your rotating the engine CCW.  DO NOT ROCK THE ENGINE BACK AND FORTH TO SET THE TIMING.





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RE: xyz cdi - 6/12/2009 9:04 PM   
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Status: offline 		how are you finding tdc.  i really like the method avi8tor posted but havent had a chance to try it yet.  you must be at true tdc to be accurate.

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 1:36 AM   
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Status: offline 		I let the compression of the engine find top dead center for me, Turn the piston all the way to the top, Install the wheel and rotate back and forth real lightly, you will see that most engine have about 10-12 deg of lose play, Center of that lose play is top dead center.

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 2:00 AM   
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I have been converting and selling gas engines for close to eight years and the method I posted is about as accurate as you can get, If dead center of the lose play with the piston on top of compression stroke is not top dead center then what is it.

Milton


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< Message edited by w8ye -- 6/19/2009 7:19 AM >

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 2:02 AM  1 votes
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Status: offline 		Champ RN12YC. $3 at your auto store. Get one clamp in a vice, wear saftey glasses, get big hammer use a punch and knock out the guts.
Instant piston stop for finding TDC.

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 2:54 AM   
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Yep, that would work Terry. 

AV8TOR



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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 5:14 AM   
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Ok guys I dont have A dial indicator nor the means to set one up the best I can do is use a dowel and move the piston up to the top put my degree wheel on and rotate it back and forth and see how much it moves in both direction before the piston moves and devide by two so lets say the it moves 4degrees  ccw before the piston moves and rotate it back to 0 and rotate it cw say 4 degrees before the piston moves this is where I thing I am messing up should I add or subtract 4 degrees to 28 derees michael 



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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 6:05 AM  1 votes
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Status: offline 		TDC
Piston stop. setup degree wheel and pointer. Install P.S .turn engine until the piston hits the stop, record number of degrees. Turn engine other way until the piston hits the stop. record number. Add numbers, divide by 2. With the piston against the stop, fudge the degree wheel until the magic number is under the pointer. To validate your math turn the engine the other way until it hits the stop. The degrees should be the same. Of course one will be BTDC and the other will be ATDC
Example 15 deg BTDC and 35 deg ATDC  added = 50 degrees, divide by 2 = 25 degrees. Set the degree wheel so that the pointer reads 25 degrees BTDC & ATDC when the piston is against the stop.
Using a piston stop is more accurate than a dial indicator simply because it will load the bearings and remove ALL the slack from them.
On a simple single its super easy to use. . On a multi cylinder with heads and accessories on its a major PIA as combat pilot explained
 A dowel can shift, get a long reach spark plug and make a piston stop.
WORD OF WARNING  IF YOU FINALLGET IT RIGHT, DONT tell anybody in your club. If you brag about being able to time an engine you will endup timing everybody's engine anytime it burps. Make every body think its Rocket Science, even though its so simple after a few times.

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 7:08 AM   
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Status: offline 		thanks michael

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 7:11 AM   
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Status: offline 		that and as I found out, if you get cocky and brag at all, something on your plane will have a conversation with mr murphy...

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 4:06 PM   
michael wood


 

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Status: offline 		OK I have it now thanks TKG I now have it set at 28 degrees you explained it to where I understood it and thanks to all of you guys that also helped I took what all you all were saying and put it together to were it made sence to me now the engine ideles real low cant kill it wit the trim so I guess I forgot to solder the hole on the butterfly eighter I got lucky or i did it right either way its running good it will hand start in one or two flips of the propwhen I rechecked the the timming it was way off like 40 degrees havent tacked it yet but when I go from ldel to full throtle there is no lag time it is there again thanks to you all you guys you are the best on RCU thanks michael 

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 4:21 PM   
combatpilot



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Status: offline 		Michael did you finally use and understand the piston stop method?  If you did can you now see why using a dowl to try and feel the piston dead spot would not work real accurate.  Its not that hard to make a piston stop.  Its so simple once you understand it. 

Sounds like you got it right this time if your engine is running that good.  Isnt it nice to know your dead on where it should be and you dont have to guess and hand tune it?


Like I say this subject has been discussed to death on here.  I just dont understand why it is so hard to understand when the process is so simple.

I think if I can afford to get another ignition box and i can find someone to video and edit me, I will make a video of this process and place it on youtube.  It really seems there needs to be an instructional video of this.

< Message edited by combatpilot -- 6/16/2009 4:24 PM >

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 4:32 PM   
combatpilot



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quote:

TDC
Piston stop. setup degree wheel and pointer. Install P.S .turn engine until the piston hits the stop, record number of degrees. Turn engine other way until the piston hits the stop. record number. Add numbers, divide by 2. With the piston against the stop, fudge the degree wheel until the magic number is under the pointer. To validate your math turn the engine the other way until it hits the stop. The degrees should be the same. Of course one will be BTDC and the other will be ATDC
Example 15 deg BTDC and 35 deg ATDC  added = 50 degrees, divide by 2 = 25 degrees. Set the degree wheel so that the pointer reads 25 degrees BTDC & ATDC when the piston is against the stop.
Using a piston stop is more accurate than a dial indicator simply because it will load the bearings and remove ALL the slack from them.
On a simple single its super easy to use. . On a multi cylinder with heads and accessories on its a major PIA as combat pilot explained
 A dowel can shift, get a long reach spark plug and make a piston stop.
WORD OF WARNING  IF YOU FINALLGET IT RIGHT, DONT tell anybody in your club. If you brag about being able to time an engine you will endup timing everybody's engine anytime it burps. Make every body think its Rocket Science, even though its so simple after a few times.



Terry i think your right when  you say its more accurate then a dial indicator.  I think the method describe above is the best way ive heard it described.  I really have to thank avi8tor for turning me on to the piston stop.  Its so freaking simple lol.

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 5:48 PM   
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Status: offline 		no I dint use a piston stop I tried to look at that link byt it would open so i used a dowel and used what you all have said set the tinning and rotated the crank 3 times and it was firing at 28 degrees thanks again michael ps cant wait to to the vedio on how to set it up michael

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/16/2009 8:23 PM   
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Yea I really would like to do a video on it.  I think i know who can help me put it all together but i need a new ignition box.



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RE: xyz cdi - 6/17/2009 3:07 AM   
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10-12 On compression is right.  Not 4.  what you are doing is bring the piston up all the way.  Let the compression leak off.  then move it back and forth.  You will see that it will be about 10 to 12.  divide in 1/2 and that is TDC, set timing.  run engine see what you get with rpm.  Move timing to see if you get more or less.  Set it for the best running that you like and your done.   it is not that hard and no one will die with a off timing RC plane.

 



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RE: xyz cdi - 6/17/2009 3:21 AM   
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Status: offline 		I was reading same thread....seems like no timing wheel is needed or piston stop.  Just get engine running and advance timing in small amounts untill top RPM is reached.   My next engine will have a moveable pick-up to advanceand retard spark a few degrees.  Some new engines come that way.  I do not see what all the fuss is about.  Go cool your brains a bit.   Capt,n

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/17/2009 7:45 PM   
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Status: offline 		All engines do not run best set to fire at 28 degrees BTDC.   Just like all carb settings are not exactly 1 1/2 turns open.   The 28 degrees is just a good place to start....also a guess of about 20 to 30 degress is a good enough starting point.  Fine tune from there.  The main thing that when your done it runs good. If the engine does not knock & idles good with a good top RPM...what more do you want????  I will go as far to say....I bet air races...ect have been lost by setting by a person that read 28 is the magic number and was beat out buy a guy that tunes by ear!!!!    Capt,n

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/18/2009 4:02 AM   
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  First
    We are not building a space shuttle or working for Nasa,  If the timing is +1 to -1 deg the engine will run about the same.

I never said the piston would go up and down 10-12 deg I said the crank would have that rotation play when the piston is set to the top of the cylinder.

I have probably timed over 200 engines in the last two years and they all seem to be doing fine with plenty of power and easy hand starts.

Take a couple day's and read about the engines I sell.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7661620/tm.htm

Milton

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< Message edited by w8ye -- 6/19/2009 7:04 AM >

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/19/2009 4:00 AM   
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Combatpilot...lets have a good  time on here.  I am not putting you down, but just trying to explain a easy way to get a engine to run good.  Some people do not want to use any special measurements at all.  The 28 degrees is just a close setting.  Exact numbers is not needed...but ok if you like that way.  Some guys have even removed the key on a flywheel mag and advanced the timing a tad without the key and just a little locktite.  Hey there is no cut in stone way to set up any engine.  Before auto advance there was linkage tied in with the throttle on carb to get advance at different RPM.  It worked good.  The more ways mentioned on here gives each guy a choise...whatever is the most easy way for him.  I refuse to get mad and go off....it is not good and not my style.   Take Care and be yourself & let everyone else be there-self!   Capt,n



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RE: xyz cdi - 6/19/2009 5:58 AM   
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This is my last response with the video below,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SydZVV5bCQM&feature=channel_page

Milton

 
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< Message edited by RC Extreme power -- 6/21/2009 7:46 AM >

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RE: xyz cdi - 6/19/2009 7:09 AM   
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Status: offline 		if you, captn and I are stuped.   well I like it.  I have one great time being stuped.   

My 1st engine I did was a homie 25.  When I saw it run.  WOW it felt good.  I mad a vido and took a lot ot pics  to show how ezy it is to do.  I wanted people out there to try it out.  Have fun and save some $$$$$$$.  

The last thing I wanted was to tell some one the hardest way to do somthing and have them say.  I cant do that.

I made my 1st mufler.   It works great.   It is very light and aluminum is not hard to weld with a torch and some alumo weld.  Some people said that it will brake.  It is very britel.  Not yet.  lol

Make it simple and make it fun.   If that is being stuped.   I AM PROUD TO BE STUPED.

Paul

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