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Scale combat flying? - 5/10/2009 6:38 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Today at the field a couple of the guys were having fun. There was a Kyosho Me-109 and a P-51 up in the air at the same time and they started chasing each other around the field and playing follow the leader. It looked great.

It occurred to me that this is what fighters are designed to do and was wondering why scale contests don't include "scale fighting." I mean it's all very well do do rolls and dives and immelmanns up in the sky. But it seems to me that the best way to judge "scale flight" with a warbird is in combat maneuvering. There could be one (or more) judges for each model in the dogfight.

< Message edited by abufletcher -- 5/10/2009 7:24 AM >

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/10/2009 2:43 PM   
bent



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Status: offline 		Formation flying is a very risky business, follow the leader less so. Expect to make contact with the other flyer sooner or later. We do both on a regular basis with our small combat models and put on the best show with 1/8 scale WWI models. Despite years of practice, we rarely manage to stay tight (10 to 20 ft. apart) for the entire circuit, especially with three models. Formation landings and takeoff are the best!!

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/10/2009 7:07 PM   
PilotFighter



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Status: offline 		I have played chase with a good friend for decades . We use real ACM at 3/4 speed. Looks great and its lots of fun.

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/11/2009 10:37 PM   
WinterHawke



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Status: offline 		As a Scale Competition Event - this would be very problematic to set up, I would think (Rules of Engagement?).

But . . .

It is a highlight of many scale fly-ins I've attended, as the lads "have it on" with each other. Rather like a dog chasing a car, the idea is NOT to actually catch the bird you're chasing!!

A few shots from a few years ago (various photographers including myself, one being Del Johnson - I'm not sure who owns some of these, sorry):









Enjoy the show!!!

Best regards,

Lee McDuffee
the WinterHawke

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/12/2009 1:20 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		That looks like great fun! This is what RC flying and particularly WWI RC flying is really all about. It's too bad that scale competitions can't find a way to get back to this.

This is what "team scale" SHOULD mean!



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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/12/2009 1:55 AM   
mgnostic



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Status: offline 		At one point in time 1/12 scale combat was the hot thing. That fad mostly passed and it seems like most of the combat fliers are into the specialized non scale aircraft. For a while though there were some really cool small scale warbirds mixing it up. I've run through a half dozen of them through the years and I'm starting on my second Arsenal VG-33. They require some hand launch skill and at least in my experience pointy noses fly and hold up better than round noses. They are relatively cheap and you can toss a couple of them in the back seat of the car for a quick flying session. I never flew combat but getting 3 or 4 of these little birds in the air and tearing around after each other is a real hoot.

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/12/2009 2:13 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		I've often wanted to try the combat thing. But don't really want to go the whole non-scale ribbon-cutting thing. I'd just like to see more scale fighters chasing or being chased. I don't think it would be such a a hard thing to ask pilots to do in a competition. There just needs to be a "pace plane" that they have to chase around. Points awarded for "getting on the tail" and evading. Pretty acrobatics and precision "maneuvers" are for pattern flyers. Combat plans get thrown around in an effort to avoid dying. Pretty doesn't matter.

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/12/2009 3:14 AM   
TFF


 

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Status: online 		A buddy of mine gave me one of his combat planes so I could fight him; talk about hard, it got to the point that one of us would fly straight and level and the other would try to hit the other plane. No kills. It was fun to chase each other with disposable planes but good ones would be real hard. You have to have someone who will tell you what to expect next and you need planes with similar flight chariteristics, like tested to same stall, turning radius, power.

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/12/2009 3:44 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		I'm thinking more in terms of "follow the leader." I did this to a very limited degree the other day in that I just decided to fly a similar circuit to another model flying. I wasn't trying to catch it but following generally what it was doing as I flew my own model. I never got closer than about 300 yards. But I was flying IN RESPONSE to another plane and that to me seems like the essence of scale warbird flying.

The more skilled the pilot the more closely you could predict what the other guy is going to do. That plus a static score would mean a hell of a lot more to me than current flight judging.

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/12/2009 4:58 AM   
vertical grimmace



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Status: offline 		I used to fly 2610 scale combat. You really get tired of building to destroy! My time spent with that event though is what led me to building scale models. my favorite (and many others) was the German TA 152 with the long wings. Good for grabbing streamers. I now have plans for an exact scale version of this plane in 1\5th scale. 114" wing. I cannot wait to fly a big version to see how it handles. tThe small 1\12th version flew better than any of the other planes I had tried.
Here is a pic at the Warbirds over the Rockies a couple years back. Even though I have a streamer on my Fokker, I would never use it for real combat flying!
Oops, I guess that flight I left the leader streamer off. I usually fly with one though.

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/12/2009 6:34 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Great photo! And, no, I'm not really talking about flying competition quality scale models like people fly 1/12 scale combat. Those models are hardly scale anyway. I'm talking about flying in concert or in competition with other models. The idea wouldn't be to cut streamers. It would just be the fly relative to another model. I mean, who cares what a Dr.I or a P-51 or a Me-109 does ALONE in the air? Crop dusters dust crops. Civilian aircraft cruise. Bombers bomb and fighters fight.

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/12/2009 3:08 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: online 		I'm talking about follow the leader too; plus, for a WW1 to look like a dogfight any thing more than 50 ft apart will look to timid. to do this is more like a pattern flight. Lead pilot would have to say things like "closing throttle" so the following plane does not run through the first, "rolling left followed by right turn" could be used to either follow or switch leaders depending on the plan. There are too many stories of mid-day exibitions at scale contests between rounds at lunch where an inprov airshow is put on and someone does a "full up" while inverted into the ground or a mid-air because a plane did not slow while following another. If you have no intrest in loosing the plane it is a lot easer; lots of ugly sticks as you know, as the orig. kit had paint patterns for both US and Red Baron. Real dogfighting is fun, but to pretend to pretend to dogfight?

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 5/12/2009 9:20 PM   
WinterHawke



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Status: offline 		TFF,

You've nailed the essence of this exactly.

"Combat" flying between two aircraft like is being discussed is in reality a well coordinated formation flight, just not in a straight line. Anytime you see two flyers doing this well, you will also hear a constant stream of chatter as each keeps the other informed, so that there are NO surprises between them.

And even then, once in a while an oops occurs.

But it is a blast to do, and when the two pilots are really in sync, it's a real crowd pleaser! The real trick is having a camera and a good photographer present at the same time!!!


Jim Suchy and I (flying Doug Cox's Nie.28) at DPR 03 - Dayton
Photo by Del Johnson

Best regards,

Lee McD

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 10/2/2009 10:05 PM   
top242


 

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Status: offline 		Hi! i need plans of these models ww1 combat! please!

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 10/6/2009 4:37 PM   
paladin


 

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Status: offline 		My son and I will on occasion do combat with 60 2c size planes, and did the scale combat till everyone switched to non scale.

Let me start by saying that when attending a flyin I used to put on my registration form “The airfield is now controlled by the axis powers” in the notes. When I was done flying the pits would be full of allied planes and someone would say something and the next thing we new I was the lone bad guy and we had a ball. In doing this there are two rules:
- always keep blue between the planes (ok I’m from new york so grey).
- It is very easy to get target fixation so if someone is getting to close yell break as loud as you can and that means go back to a traffic pattern and regroup. To be honest, yelling break never really worked if someone was in the zone. Those who know me now that I would drop down to 10ft or less and every time the offending pilot gets close I go for grass stains. If he wont break off then he’s going to have to aim at me and miss the ground. That sobers them up really fast, then they hear the break being yelled.

When my son got old enough he flew a flop tite P-51D against me in a Flop Tite Hollywood Zero. We had a great time! He was faster and had faster aileron response but I could out turn him. When he got on my 6 a out of plane barrel role would usually do the trick but after a while he realized that by doing a stall turn he could bounce me once I finished the maneuver. Also going low was not a problem for him he was flying dads plane so if the old man wants to go low I’m on it!

Combat is not about loops and roles, it is about timing. Using a part of a barrel role here or some yaw there to slow you down just enough to put you right on the six of that guy. The other thing it is about is giving the other guy the worst shot he can get, if you are moving in three planes that is the hardest gun shot to make. Following someone around in a follow the leader would be fun but not the real thrill we all want!

Our combat grew into 1/12 scale combat I flew a global AT-6 and my son confiscated a Zig’s Corsair. We had a ball, I had 12 mid-airs in 1/12 scale combat (I’ll post the pic’s if I can find them). I have a friend that was a fighter pilot in the Melawi revolution flying republic F-84’s and he used to say “if you don’t have to clime to clear the fences your to d*** high!” so that was the tact I used when in 1/12 combat I would fly low and wait (fly around 10-15ft high) when someone made a mistake and came spinning out of the furball there I was. Or when all the ribbons where gone in the furball they all come down and play. When this happen if you had a streamer, weather on your wing or still attached to your plane I’d play. If you had no streamer I’d dive for grass stains and watch them blow by. The other pilots tried to force me to do the furball but the rules said flying low was an acceptable option. So at one meet they invited their kids to shoot paintballs at anything they could reach (me). we had a ball and they never hit me solid just had to remember to not fly in a straight line and each pass had to be at a different T setting. Then when everyone else came down to play it really got interesting. Soon after that shooting at the planes was band.

Now that 1/12 scale combat is dead and my son wants to mix it up with electric jets, expensive electric jets I’m looking for someone willing to do WWII combat with me under the rules listed above with flop tite size planes. So don’t knock the door down volunteering (ha ha). It would be nice to have AMA show team status so we could be part of the noon time entertainment at giant scale flyins.

Will do all the gaggle fly’s and follow the leaders I can get.

Joe


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< Message edited by paladin -- 10/7/2009 1:01 AM >

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RE: Scale combat flying? - 10/6/2009 5:59 PM   
cocobear


 

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Status: online 		Fun and painless is doing combat with the ElectriFly WW1 planes. 5 feet of string and 10 feet of streamer is cool!!! They take a good hit without to much carnage.

DJ

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