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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/14/2009 10:22 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		No problem, here's another for you. Needed a little break thought I'd give a brief up to the minute detail. Just sanded the flanges and used body filler to hid any gaps. Little was required since I kept all the joints tight. Sanded again and applied a light coat of automotive primer. Probably isn't necessary, but hey, I had it. Getting ready to mix some gelcoat in a few minutes.

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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 5/15/2009 10:14 AM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/14/2009 10:26 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Also adding alignment guides, or pins as some call them. Half spheres and an elongated one I found at my hardware store.... supposed to be used for toilet seat bumpers or something like that....PERFECT! These are made from hard plastic and even have a tack on the opposite side! Only 4 are really needed to keep the mold halves in perfect alignment once they come together. The longer ones came with the kit, so I figured I'd use them. Used super glue to hold them in place and will be gelcoating right over them.

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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 5/15/2009 12:31 AM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/15/2009 12:52 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		OK, at this point a heavy application of gelcoat has been placed on the made flanges. I used an old autmotive spray gun and thinned the gelcoat out with acetone. You can use other means of covering the wood, but I know a resin based product will NOT be incompatible so I choose this product. May take a little more effort to smooth out and shine up but I know it works, and the end results will be worth the effort.

The last picture is of the gelcoated flanges covered with a green layer of PVA. Not doing so will make the surface of the gelcoat stay "gummy" and not harden. PVA keeps the air out and allows the catalyst to fully cure the resins in the gel. When I'm ready to wetsand the area, I'll use a wet sponge and wipe off the PVA....yes, it's that easy.

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/15/2009 1:21 AM   
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Status: offline 		Scott, I just had my first experience with gelcoat and I have to say it is alot different working with polyester resins and gelcoat than using west system epoxy resins. The PVA worked great even when your gelcoating the outside layer for the finish color like I did on my transom doorway... Your mold half looks great, how tight of a space are you working with between the hull and flange???

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/15/2009 1:22 AM   
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Status: offline 		Scott,

What makes the resin based product not compatible? Also elaborate what you are saying about the PVA over the gel coat keeping things from staying tacky.

I know you're a teacher so I can get by with the questions

Thanks,

Paul

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/15/2009 2:11 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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quote:

ORIGINAL: slider46

Scott, I just had my first experience with gelcoat and I have to say it is alot different working with polyester resins and gelcoat than using west system epoxy resins. The PVA worked great even when your gelcoating the outside layer for the finish color like I did on my transom doorway... Your mold half looks great, how tight of a space are you working with between the hull and flange???

Quite different in fact. The clearances are very tight....the flange on the sides ride slightly under the pre-existing lip. Up front, I just located the center and kept things tight and square. The transom area is pressed right square riding off the sides as they wrapped around. Hope that makes sense?!?!

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/15/2009 2:33 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul M

Scott,

What makes the resin based product not compatible? Also elaborate what you are saying about the PVA over the gel coat keeping things from staying tacky.

I know you're a teacher so I can get by with the questions

Thanks,

Paul

I just wanted to use the gelcoat as my cover for the flange since I've experienced incompatibility with some other products. Sometimes certain paints "melt" into the gelcoat destroying the finish. Other times a non-compatible surface may cause the gelcoat layer to wrinkle up...something called "tripe". By using a resin based product as my flange surface, I know it's going to work. I know you can use other products and many other boat builders have used regular auto paints like acrylic enamel (I think Dana uses this). I may experiment a few different types of paints to see what reactions I get if any. Perhaps in the future I'll use a regular paint. I also have 2 gallons of a 5 gallon bucket of gelcoat I want to burn through before it's shelf life expires!

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/15/2009 3:43 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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quote:

ORIGINAL: slider46

... how tight of a space are you working with between the hull and flange???

The gelcoat has hardened and I was able to place the hull back on the flange frame for you and get close ups.
As you can see in the pictures, there really is no clearance. What little there will be will have to be sealed at a 90 degree angle by using non hardening and non drying modeling clay. You'll see that step soon. You can also really see the green PVA contrasting with the white hull in these pictures.

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/15/2009 9:20 AM   
Hesco Racing


 

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Status: offline 		I am learning so much from the thread. Best thread of all so far. Looks good.

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/15/2009 8:32 PM   
Doubledog



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Status: offline 		Yeah, ditto. Good thread. I'm still trying to guess the next steps, sorta like a masked painting. Just a little hard for my brain to understand but fun.

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/15/2009 9:34 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Well, we can make a game out of it if you like... Next step was to remove the PVA and sand smooth. Gelcoat is just so easy to work with and sands easily. I used 320 to start, 400 and finally finished with 600 grit.



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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 5/16/2009 7:09 PM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/15/2009 9:44 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		After a polish with a high speed compound buffer....here's what I now have.

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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 5/16/2009 5:56 PM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/16/2009 7:14 AM   
Doubledog



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A game of sorts, I'm in as its a learning experience

I'm currious as to why you're buffiing the lip and doing all the gelcoat work on it. This is the bottom half of the clam shell right? So the inside you'll do with the moulding clay and then work it around the hull?



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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/16/2009 12:07 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Yes, this is the bottom half of the clamshell, so to speak.  I'm doing all that gelcoat work on it because like the plug, I want the fiberglass to easily release from the flange....remember, it's only there to hold the shape while the glass is curing.  It will most likely be destroyed while attempting to remove the frame.  However it would have served it's intended and designed use.


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/16/2009 1:36 PM   
Doubledog



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Ok, me thinks a bit differently now.... this will be used to as the first step in the actual mould right? Now you'll get the clay and make the impression, lay glass inside the clay once its hardened then that will then become the actual moulde? Sorry for thinking ahead, its part of my job.



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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/16/2009 4:34 PM   
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Status: online 		sweet, more progress. i just place my order for a waterproof killswitch, i'll be ordering the motor we talked about next week. hopfully if all goes well i will be making the trip down to see you within a month. i can't wait to see this in person. hopefully after we're done, you'll have some time to help me get it dailed in and try for some speed runs. keep up the great work and posting your progress, as i love seeing it coming together. thanks again, tony

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/16/2009 7:20 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Sounds good Tony.  Looking forward to your visit.  T-Daddy gave me a visit a few weeks ago. 

Spending most of my day waxing the plug in preparation for molding.  Need at least 6 coats but aiming for 10.  Have to wait at least 30 minutes between coats to allow the wax to gas off.  Could probably begin molding the hatch today but it's way too humid to begin spraying gelcoat today.  Doing so opens the opportunity for tripe, something I definately don't want to see. 

Just started using TR Mold Release wax.  Used to use a green product called Part All, but problem was it takes too much elbow grease to remove, and never really dries.  This stuff is much more slippery than what I had before and MUCH easier to remove.  Never going back to the "green stuff" again.  Once the 10 coats are applied, I'll use my oil based clay and fill in the gaps and start the molding process.


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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 5/16/2009 7:30 PM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/16/2009 7:46 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Oh, here's the hatch, just before adding PVA over the gelcoat.  It was prepped with a flange the same way as the hull with a flexable 3/32" sheet glued to the bottom of the hatch edges where I created a flat spot with body filler.   It's since been sanded and polished same way as the rest of the hull, and already has 10 coats of mold release over it. 


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/17/2009 12:58 AM   
nvs motorsports


 

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TR wax is pretty good but i find CERA wax much better and a very compatible with PVA

Anyone that is going to use PVA just be aware some waxes are not compatible it will fish eye o job or just bleed off like silocone so always ask for compatible wax

Lovin ya work there scott this is a great thread and shows the justification why a good hull does not cost $50 to build

Quality takes time and good quality materials



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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/17/2009 1:29 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Thanks Dion, I'll burn through this jar and give that brand a try later on.  Had a few issues as you described but I know now that it was applied too thick for a first coat.  Regrouping for tomorrow as it's very humid here today.  

Did the clay work and you see that here.  The clay is oil based and will not dry, crack or harden.  The largest gap I had was on the hatch flange.  The hull's largest gap is maybe 1/16".  This stuff tools great and will seal the edge preventing resin from locking the mold to the plug.


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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 5/17/2009 1:31 AM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/17/2009 11:40 AM   
HOOTERS racing


 

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nice work mate just wondering are you spraying the gelcoat and at what psi you are useing thanks

ian



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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/17/2009 12:04 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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ORIGINAL: HOOTERS racing

nice work mate just wondering are you spraying the gelcoat and at what psi you are useing thanks

ian


Thank you Ian,

I'm using a spray gun specifically designed for placing gelcoat called a "dump gun", or some refer to it as a "cup gun".  Using this type gun eliminates the need to thin the tooling gelcoat and avoids problems with doing so.  Clean up us also easy as all I do is discard the paper cup that fits inside the one you see and wipe down the lid, thats all!  Tooling gelcoat is significantly thicker than regular gelcoat so I need a larger nozzle than what I typically use for regular gel.  I think it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 6mm???  A brush could be used, however you'll never get the results that you can get with spraying with a dump gun.

As far as pressure, I have found 40 to 45 psi to be a nice pressure.  Any more than that creates ripples, sort of like little waves at a beach on the surface. 



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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 5/17/2009 12:06 PM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/17/2009 2:51 PM   
Paul M


 

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Status: offline 		Scott, Can that gun be used for paint as well?

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/17/2009 2:59 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Trying to paint the outside of a hull?  If so than the answer is no.  That dump gun dosen't atomize the gelcoat as it's "poured" out of the nozzle, it's only directed by the airflow in droplets onto the surface in more of a splatter configuration.  Air pressure does not siphon the gel from the cup, only gravity....soon as you tilt it forward, the flow starts and you better be ready.  Good for appling into molds, terrible for final paint work.  The nozzle is way too large anyway.  For actual painting like when I use a basecoat/clearcoat or enamels you need guns similar to these....


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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 5/17/2009 3:34 PM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 5/17/2009 3:09 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Here's a shot of a gelcoat gun nozzle and also that of a standard automotive paint gun compared to a regular pencil.  As you can see the difference is more than obvious.


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