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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/4/2009 6:06 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		After a few hours wetsanding and polishing, here's where I'm at.  Notice the difference in the areas that are untouched compared to areas detailed out.  Huge difference.  The minor imperfections in areas not sanded are due to the use of PVA.  Always attracts dust and dosen't really really make for a perfect finish.  However it did guarantee the plug would release!  The area in the center of the 1'st picture has been sanded and polished.  Areas around it have not been touched yet. 

Just another couple days sanding and polishing and parts will be ready make.  The hatch is finished the polishing process and has a coat of release wax on it. 

These pictures don't really show the gloss as it's very overcast and the camera flash screws with the black gloss finish, but here's the best I could get for you.


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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 6/4/2009 6:07 PM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/4/2009 7:47 PM   
martno1fan



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Status: offline 		looks good Scott i know you have a lot on your plate in your personal life at the moment and it cant be easy i wish you well with this project and in your personal life mate hang in there.
Mart


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/5/2009 3:46 AM   
nvs motorsports


 

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Status: offline 		Looking good Scott just out of interest before you wax the mold do you use a sealer glaze
That will seal the small pores and retain the wax better on the moulding surface will also prevent dulling off of tooling gelcoat

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/5/2009 8:33 AM   
Hesco Racing


 

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Just some useless info. Saw a company polish a mould for a 60 foot cat yaught. Took them 4 months with 3 guys in fluffy slippers and electric polishers to polish before they started moulding. That boat came out the mould shinning like a new penny.

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/5/2009 9:53 AM   
martno1fan



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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/5/2009 11:24 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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quote:

ORIGINAL: nvs motorsports

Looking good Scott just out of interest before you wax the mold do you use a sealer glaze
That will seal the small pores and retain the wax better on the moulding surface will also prevent dulling off of tooling gelcoat

Absolutely did!  I have a strong autobody background and used all sorts of products over the years.....that stuff works great!  It's a 3M Sealer that I've been using and the difference is noticable.
Hesco, the company where I purchase all my supplies is called First State Fiberglass about 5 minutes form my home.  They manufactuter several different size hulls of their design and I've seen them do the same thing.....taking months to wax out a plug before molding.



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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/5/2009 12:05 PM   
Hesco Racing


 

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Status: offline 		 am also amazed that you are making a product so wuickly after making the mould. I am probably wrong but should the mould not stand a few days/weeks to make sure all the (stirene/zylene never shure which one it is) has escaped?

Cobus


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/5/2009 12:32 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		No reason to let it sit for weeks.  It's been over a week for most parts so I'm not at all worried. 


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/6/2009 2:24 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Quick update...

Just applied 10 coats of TR Mold Release paste wax on the hatch.  Each coat allowed to haze over (10 minutes) and sat for no less than half an hour (per directions) to allow the wax to harden before the next layer was applied.  This particular wax is not very compatable with PVA unless you are very careful how it you spray it on.  This "Regular" wax from TR is designed to be used without PVA.  It's very slippery and is designed specifically for production molds.  

I still like the "safety net" that PVA provides, however the finish that you get when using it is never that great.  Yes, it's shiny....but your finish is always better when it's NOT used, especially when your molds are polished to a mirror.  Just to test the wax results, I've made a test bed using the hatch and mixed a sample of gelcoat and placed it directly on the mold surface.  This is called a "blow coat", and will be removed as a true test of how an actual part will release from the molds.  The tape is there to give me a defined line and gel is placed over the tape edge to make lifting the gel off easier without the use of any tools (hopefully).   In about 2 hours once this gelcoat kicks off and hardens, I'll remove the blow coat and hopefully see the effective results.  When it comes off well, I'll add a couple more coats of wax and I know for sure I'll have an easy and clean release once I build an entire fiberglass part.

By the way, the upper half of the mold has been painstakingly wetsanded and polished to a mirror finish.  Absolutely flawless.  Just need more sealer as I used up the last I had for the hatch. 


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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 6/8/2009 3:39 AM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/6/2009 5:38 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		The results.....a success!

The tape peeled off however only by itself.  The gelcoat remained on the mold.  A few picks with a plastic wedge and it easily peeled away revealing a very glossy finish on the mold side of the gelcoat.  A little hard to remove in a few areas since some of the spots were thin with gel and didn't want to peel away too easily.  With the backing of a couple layers of hard fiberglass, I now know it's going to make for an easy release.


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/6/2009 10:46 AM   
martno1fan



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Status: offline 		I use the Tr wax its awesome but as you say it doesnt like the pva release agent,that said ive tried two different batches of pva and one worked ok the other didnt so i ended up using none on the last hull and although the parts were a little harder to release the finnish was very good.I find fitting the rails into the hulls while in the mould makes things so much easier to pull them from the moulds also,i know you do the same mate.
Mart

< Message edited by martno1fan -- 6/6/2009 10:47 AM >


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/7/2009 3:20 AM   
nothinbetr2do


 

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Status: online 		hi scott, looks like you making some more good progress. sorry to hear about your dad, keep up the spirits . sorry i can be of any help to this thread, but i do like watching my new boat being built. thanks for posting some more pics, take it easy bud. tony

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/7/2009 9:59 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Latest progress.  After hours of painstaking wetsanding and polishing, the halves are now ready to begin the long process of applying all the required layers of release wax.  Here are the molds just after wetsanding and compound buffing.  Still no wax on them yet, but will start now and end with no less than 20 coats over the next couple days.


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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 6/8/2009 2:43 AM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/7/2009 10:25 PM   
Paul M


 

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Status: offline 		Looks great Scott. Any ideas what you and NVS plan to charge for a hull?

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/7/2009 10:33 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		I have an idea on what to start them at, however due to RCU's rules I'm not at liberty to discuss the price details in a discussion thread.  Either email me or PM and I'll give you a heads up.

scott@firststatecomposites.com


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/8/2009 2:38 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Another update, and another technique....

Finshed for the evening and three good coats of release have been applied.  Each coat making sure all the corners are well covered. 

I applied the first two coats of TR Mold Release using a high speed 3" pnumatic polisher.  Using this little polisher enables me to do a procedure called "burning in" the mold.  The little bit of heat generated from polishing practically liquifies the wax and forces it into any open pores.  As it hardens (and cools) the wax is drawn into any pores and pinholes helping to seal things up better than hand waxing alone.  I've used this approach before and had excellent results.  Not at all necessary, however highly recommended from my local boat builder and supplier.  I've even called TR Industries (wax people) about this and was told it should cut my initial applications in half for new or reconditioned molds.  Still may add 20 coats.....just to be sure.

This little polisher wheel has been great getting into areas my large high speed buffer wheel can't.  I have 7 different pads for this little thing, used just about all depending on the application.  Only drawback to even this tiny polisher is the air consumption.  It requires 11.5 fcm at 90 psi.  Fortunately my compressor delivers over that (twin cylinder) and is able to keep up.  Little pancake compressors, or portable ones don't stand a chance of keeping up with the air requirements. 

I'll tell you, it's a good feeling finally doing this "lite" work as opposed to hard sanding, layers and layers of glassing......etc.   Will spend the next day doing nothing but adding on coats of wax.  May attempt the first build by Tuesday morning if all goes well.


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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 6/8/2009 3:25 AM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/9/2009 2:33 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Quick jump ahead.  My 18 month old son decided to hide daddy's camera this morning so I was unable to take step by step pictures of the molding of the hatch.   Really no different than building the mold, just working from the inside this time using only 2 layers. 

I'll do a step by step using one of the hull halves when I decide to build one.  I coulden't resist the urge to make this this morning.  Have to admit, I used PVA before glassing this part.  Even with 15 coats of release wax I still felt I had to......but that's just me.  Definately shoulden't need it, just so used to that safety net I suppose.  Here is the end result of a test run on the hatch.  Lots of compond curves so I choose to use only 2 layers of 1 oz mat glass as an experiment.  Will be removing it early, well after 24 hours to see how things look.  After all, this is only a test part and the PVA will actually assist with seasoning the mold.  Tommorrow morning I'll remove this and show ya!

The last shot is of the edges "green trimmed" BEFORE it was fully hardened.  Sort of stiff, yet flexable and soft enough to simply run a razor knife along the edge.




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< Message edited by Dreamin Hemi -- 6/9/2009 2:34 AM >

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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/9/2009 3:07 AM   
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darn kids, lol. mine get me to once in a while to. thanks for the up date scott. if all goes well on your end, i'm planning on coming over this weekend. just lmk what day is better for you. another question, are you still thinking about doing serial numbers on these?  tony



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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/9/2009 3:31 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Yes, each hull will have it's own unique serial number, just like the mono I build.  If this 1'st one is good enough out of the mold, it will probably be #0901....(year, 1'st hull).  It will be an experiment still as I may adjust the material weights I'm using.  Still need to do a formal introduction of this thing first!  Once it comes out of the molds, I'll give out the name and of course end this thead with more formal pictures.  I'll pick up later this summer with a new build thread...perhaps you could do that honor???

Oh, almost forgot, this weekend is good so far for your visit.  It's day by day with my dad, but looks like I'm in the shop all weekend.


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/9/2009 9:22 AM   
martno1fan



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Its not a bad idea to break in the moulds by doing that to all 3 Scott,i was told by the company i used to buy my materials from who make moulds and parts for all manner of things to allways do it to new moulds.I have to admit i did it on the very first one and the part came out so nice i added another layer of mat to the inside,not the best way to do things i know but the part was just too good to throw away .I dont break my moulds in now but he said doing it does help season the mould and make things easier to release in the future  and i understand what hes saying.Ive never done more than 10 coats of wax so far ,interesting you went for 15 did you notice a marked improvement or is it just you been cautious.Ive made a top deck and canopy with just wax and it came out fine,not done a full hull yet but i might try it on a vee next week,might add a touch more wax than normal,usually i do 6-8 coats before each part.Ever thought of adding some pearl flakes into your gelcoats? im planning on trying some,the supplier told me its compatible with gelcoat but i dont know how good it would come out,might be better adding it to clear gel then putting colour over the top what do you think?.Time to experiment maybe .
Mart
 




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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/9/2009 11:41 AM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		I plan to do that to all 3 in about an hour or so using my standard layup.  Only built the hatch yesterday as that's all I had time for.  The upper and lower deck must be done together due to the construction being a wet in wet joint....more later on that.  With all the time and effort it has taken getting to this stage, adding a few more coats of wax woulden't hurt.  No, I didn't see any notable differences with the extra coats, just peace of mind.  

Not getting into the pearl additives here, but I'll add a quick comment since you brought it up.  I have lots of experience with using pearls, flakes and sparkles and other additives.  Although it was always with automotive paints, same rules apply with gelcoat.  You may get some sort of effect adding it to regular gel, however the flake would only be seen at one dimension and also only at the surface.  Basically a waste of money.  Using it with clear gelcoat is another story.  That would have great results since the flake or powers are suspended in a clear base that can be seen from all angles and at different depths yielding a great effect.  Trust me mate, I'm planning on experimenting the same thing from time to time.


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/9/2009 1:29 PM   
martno1fan



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Status: offline 		Thats what i figured,i think ill try it in some clear sometime and see what effects i can get.Look forward to how your going to join the hull halves together.I dont use glass any more ive been using tiger bond  adhesive saves time and its dam strong ive known some guys having had boats joined with it for over 10 yrs without issue and unless asked i dont bother with seamles joins any more.
Mart


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/9/2009 2:41 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		Wasn't aware your hydro or mono were seamless....

I will definately be using glass as this design is joined together in the mold, the pieces don't come out until after fully assembled.  The mold itself actually creates the smooth edges where the halves meet on the sides.  They will be bolted together and glassed while still in the green stage of curing.  You basically won't get a better chemical bond unless of course it's all one piece.  You'll see shortly hopefully later today when a test pull is made....using PVA .   

By the way, the hatch came out nice.  Easily popped out of the mold.  After a little trimming of the turned down portion of the flange edge, it fits nicely.  Just one area I'm not happy with.....the fit at the rear somehow ended up being slightly off.  You'll see in the picture.  It's not terrible and I can live with it, but would rather alter the mold slightly to be completely happy with the results.  Will keep this until I feel up to altering.


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/9/2009 4:02 PM   
Dreamin Hemi



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Status: offline 		No stopping now.  All molds gelcoated and in about an hour will start adding the glass.  Took the plunge with the hatch.  The other one came out easily so I added 2 more coats of wax and sprayed in the gelcoat. 

One thing I wish that I had done was apply tape to the flange edges.  The hull molds have a layer of PVA so I'm not worried.  Will be trimming the gel once hard enough anyway and it will simply peel of.  Hopefully comes off just as easily with the hatch


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RE: Duplicating an existing hull...ETHICALLY! - 6/9/2009 4:16 PM   
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Status: offline 		The vee was allways seamles but the hydro is a shoebox fit which i actually prefer because its easer to do and allows me to use different coloured gelcoats for top and bottom and i get a nice clean line without too much trouble and i dont like to paint my hulls if i can help it.The last vee i did i made a shoebox fit too as i cut down the hull mould to lower the whole hull for a sleaker look ,having angled sides when i lowered it the hull is now narrower than the top which allowed me to have the top overhang the bottom part,worked out great.Your canopy looks pretty good,i wouldnt worry too much about that poor fit it looks pretty good to me.
Mart


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