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Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/25/2009 3:45 PM   
Alan123


 

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From: Bremen, GERMANY
Status: offline 		In order to slow down and give my models more power at low speed I wanted to try installing a low speed but powerful truck pull crawler motor.

The trouble is I can only find this sort of motor in the larger 540 size which of course does not fit in the gearboxes of the tanks with the exception of the tamiya Leo2.

Is there a truck pull motor in the 380/400 motor size class and what is it called who makes it and has anyboday else tried it?

Lettuce no!

Cheers

Alan.

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/25/2009 4:23 PM   
shenlonco



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Status: offline 		Hi maybe the team losi mini rock crawler has a 380 size motor I also know that the duratrax cliff hanger has 380 crawler motors go to there web sites and take a look duratrax.com
teamlosi.com

Good luck

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/25/2009 6:29 PM   
Rebellion13



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Status: offline 		Alan,

I have a losi mini rock crawler, and they do come with a 380 size motor. And as Shenlonco stated, check out their website. I have not tried these motors in a tank, but they work great in the rock crawler




Wade


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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/25/2009 7:02 PM   
Alan123


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the tip, I have bought 4x this E:1123" title="http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220412197322&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA E:1123">LOSI 1/18 Mini-Rock Crawler Motor LOSB0839 hopefully they will fit ok. If they so not it is not so bad as they do not cost all thet much anyway!

Will let you know how I get on.

Cheers

AL


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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/26/2009 4:54 AM   
WhiteWolf McBride


 

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Status: online 		Guys...

Anyone wishing to try these out on the NA side of the pond can just search for 'Losi Mini Rock Crawler Motor'. I did, got a few hits, prices from $10.94 to $12.99 each for the motors. you could also ask the seller in Alan's link (who is based in the US, incidentially) if he has any more. Here is the link, sourced from eBay.com:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220412197322 (all the other drek in the eBay link isn't needed to have it work)

I may see how they do in Tamiya DMD gearbox units myself...

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/26/2009 5:02 AM   
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Status: online 		That motor reminds me of the Duratrax motors for a similar application. You'll never complete a tank length before they smoke your board, they draw too many amps.

If you want torque, it's in the gearbox, not the motors.

The strongest motors you can run with stock Heng Long TK-RX13 board is the Jamara 480 HS PRO motors with a fan to cool the heatsink. Passive methods will not work. The most reliable method is Graupner Speed400/Black Capped Suntechs (fan cooling) motors coupled with a 3-1 gearbox of which there are now several to choose from. I have a gearbox calculator with most of the popular ones listed where you can plug in your info and see how fast your tank would run.




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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/26/2009 5:21 AM   
WhiteWolf McBride


 

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Status: online 		Swathy:

Question is, will they smoke a DMD unit? or one of the aftermarket tank controllers (like the Dimension Engineering unit?) Willy, you listening? Care to get a set to dyno 'em?

Losi makes a dual-motor controller, though I ~think~ it drives both with the same signal. I have the electronics from one of the 1/18 buggies, and the ESC board has points for TWO sets of motor leads, though only one is installed. So I wanted to get one of the twin-motor ESC's to see if it was just a matter of adding a second set of leads.

Google to the rescue: The 1/18 Mini-LST2, Raminator & Rammunition all used twin-370's, and they had a twin-motor ESC -> LOSB0825 (MSRP of 44.99, on eBay for as little as 31.95)

Hope that helps someone out.

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/26/2009 10:08 AM   
Alan123


 

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Status: offline 		I plan to use the motors with Tamiya electronics not HL so hopefully they will be ok, I agree that just about anything will smoke HL electronics, even just regular driving especially in summer.

Anyway the motors are on their way.

I plan to use them in my Tamiya Panther, this will cause confusion, my panther has regular style HL metall gearboxes in it and I find that it runs too fast at max speed and when I drive more slowly with the motors I have then it has no power and then when you give it more power to make a turn it suddenly leaps unrealistically into the turn, so I need a motor with power at low revs for more realistic handling.

My panther did have HL 3-1 gearboxes in it and ran very well with them in, however I am making a Jagdpanther top for my panther at the moment and want to be able to change the upper hulls out for a change of scene, 2 tanks for the price of 1. The problem was that the 3-1 gearboxes sat too high for the JP top to fit on, so I installed HL metall JP gearboxes instead which of course have a different gear ratio.

Cheers

Alan


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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/26/2009 2:47 PM   
TexasSP


 

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Status: offline 		All of the losi dual motor ESC's have the power coming from the same output on the board and do not control the motors independently.  I have talked briefly with Castle Creations about creating a tank controller with dual outputs that could be used in other applications as well like Motor on Axle Rock crawlers.  Hopefully something can be drummed up to answer these needs.


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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/26/2009 5:05 PM   
WhiteWolf McBride


 

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Status: online 		Texas...

Dimension Engineering had one... can't remember the name though. (gotta love Google)

Sabretooth 2x10RC, thats it. Problem is the 10 amp limit (15 momentary-peak) might not be enough. I think Willy tested it, though I'm sure ~someone~ did, perhaps someone could get him/them to chime in?

http://www.dimensionengineering.com/

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/26/2009 5:40 PM   
shenlonco



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Status: offline 		Swath if the mini rockcrawler motors or the duratrax cliff hanger motors are like real rock crawler motors they will not draw hardly any amprage at all because they should have high wind counts so they have slow speed and more tork.

I think you should have purchased this motor
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXVDV1&P=Z



It's the lowest RPM of the 3 crawler motors on this page for the duratrax mini crawler.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0005p?&I=DTXD18**&P=Z

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/26/2009 10:20 PM   
swathdiver



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Status: online 		Alan, Asiatam also offers a low profile gearbox that comes with 370 sized motors. These were made to fit the Stug and should accomodate your Jagdpanther. They are 67-1 ratio versus 39-1 for stock HL. The Asiatam's you have are 89-1. I'm pretty sure the panther hull is wider then the PZIII and that would enable you to run Speed400 motors instead of the 370s for more power and still have lots of torque.

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/26/2009 11:37 PM   
TexasSP


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhiteWolf McBride

Texas...

Dimension Engineering had one... can't remember the name though. (gotta love Google)

Sabretooth 2x10RC, thats it. Problem is the 10 amp limit (15 momentary-peak) might not be enough. I think Willy tested it, though I'm sure ~someone~ did, perhaps someone could get him/them to chime in?

http://www.dimensionengineering.com/


It would be nice to have something that will allow higher amp draw for sure.  The units I would like Castle Creations to base it off of would be there 25 amp micro units which will take 25 amps continuous.  These controllers also allow up to 12 volts which would be nice.  the next trick would be changing the gearboxes to a different drive ratio to accomodate the obvious speed increase.  The torque would be amazing though.



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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 1:29 AM   
swathdiver



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Status: online 		How fast do you guys want to go? Black Capped Suntechs running through a stock gearbox on a Tiger sized sprocket will get you 2.5mph. A 12-tooth pinion will give you 3.0mph. Speed400s will be even faster.

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 8:15 AM   
WhiteWolf McBride


 

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Status: online 		Honestly...

I want a balance of speed and torque. For example, the old clutched King Tiger was rediculously fast, but reportedly dropping a 55t Integy lathe/climber motor in it made it move realistically, and it had significant climb-power too.

And Shenlonco is right: higher windings are what are giving the motors more torque, so should under normal operation ~lower~ the amperage draw. Now stressing them for more agressive maneuvers, well, you takes your chances. BUT the Sabretooth unit ~is~ fuse-protected, and you can always add another fast-blow in there if you really are worried.

Gonna do some more testing for us Shen?

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 11:14 AM   
philipat


 

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Status: offline 		Two questions in all of this:

1)  Where can one find the black-capped Suntechs (or even the white-capped ones)?

2)  What pitch should be used on the pinion gears?  I've looked at the gears on Tower Hobbies but I'm not sure what to get because they have 12-tooth (and others) with different pitches.

Thanks.


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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 1:58 PM   
swathdiver



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Status: online 		Patrick: I developed an excel file that's a gearbox and motor speed calculator. Plug in your motor RPMs, sprocket diameter against known gearboxes and voila, your speed in MPH.

I think most of the 380/385/400 motors have 3-poles. I did see some 5-pole motors for sale a couple of years ago but when I got around to buying them they were OOP and haven't found any since. On the other hand, I haven't needed it. You can get your tank to run at a realistic speed with a reduction gearbox and the current crop of available motors without re-inventing the wheel. All of my research centers around utilizing the Heng Long TK-RX13 board. The exception was piggybacking the El-Mod electronics with the TK-RX13 which was documented in my 211 Tiger build.

So unless you want your BullDog to run at scale speed or are building an M18 Tank Destroyer which did 55mph in real life, the commonly available motors and gearboxes working with original electronics will satisfy your needs while being able to provide more torque then stock.

Phil, I think the pitch is 48 but TJM- Thomas John Murphy is the expert on that.

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 2:35 PM   
Alan123


 

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Status: offline 		Swathy,

Yes I understand what you mean however I think the Stug Piii gearbox will not have schafts long enough for the panther. This can be over come with spacers on the shafts to bridge the gap but is not optimal.

HL now offer a JP 3/1 gearbox with 370 motors, which is probably the ticket, however I will for now carry on with my crawler motor experiment as a standard HL gearbox with crawler motors is more cost effective than a more expensive 3/1 gearbox with normal motors.

As for the risk of burning out the the tamiya DMD, in theory these DMDs shut down rather than overload and burnout, they have built in electrnic protection, I have seen this in action on my Leo2 where in warm and muddy conditions at an exhibition the tank shutdown rather than get too hot and burn out. It happened twice. Just hope the Panther has the same built in protection. Most of the time though the model will not be under heavy load and so should almost never need to draw maximal current.

Cheers

AL


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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 3:35 PM   
philipat


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks, swathy.

Alan, keep us posted.  I'm interested in how this experiment goes.


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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 6:08 PM   
swathdiver



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Status: online 		Al, The PZIII chassis used the same shafts as the Tiger/Pantiger. Is the new Jagdpanther different? Other guys like Perry and YHR have added a gear to a stock HL gearbox, changed the pinion and for a few bucks, have a low reduction gearbox! Perry's was something like 112-1 and Dan's was around 90-1. Couple that with Speed400s and you'll be set.

As for the Tamiya DMD, it's been said how much they'll take and yes I do believe they shut down as a fail safe. However, I don't claim to be Tamiya savvy as I don't own their system.

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 6:59 PM   
Alan123


 

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Status: offline 		Yes for the JP, HL has developed a new gearbox with longer shafts and with low mounted motors because the JP is so low slung, on top of this I see that just this week that have started offering a JP 3-1 gearbox , it has the weakness that it has the motors directly opposite each other, rather than staggered, and so the spacing really ist limited to the little 370 motors which are not powerful enough in my opinion to run well with such a large model with a full metal ensemble.

Also my mechanical skills are not really up to installing extra cogs in gearboxes and I really admire and envy people that can. This experiment with the motors is stretching me as it is, I just hope it works out and I dont blow anything up.

Cheers

AL



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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 7:19 PM   
swathdiver



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Status: online 		Al, that sounds like the same gearbox used in the Stug. If it is, the shafts should be the same. Where's The Blitz? Phil, do you know if they use the same gearbox?

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 7:30 PM   
Alan123


 

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Status: offline 		Have a look at the pics on the asiatam.de site and judge for yourself. The designs are very similar but I think they are different for each tank even if it is only the axle length.

Like you suggest we need someone who sells them to confirm if they are the same or not.

AL


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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 8:47 PM   
swathdiver



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Status: online 		Their pics are small but they sure look the same. Maybe someone will chime in after work. The trick to using those with bigger motors is to elevate one gearbox by fabricating a metal wedge to angle one gearbox up far enough to clear the other motor. It's been done on Panther/Stug/Tiger conversions.

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RE: Truck Pull crawler motors in 380 size for tanks - 5/27/2009 9:40 PM   
TexasSP


 

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Status: offline 		I almost would prefer to get rid of the gear boxes and go with a motor mount direct drive unit using a small outrunner brushless motor.  This would be a little more money but much more reliable and quieter than the metal boxes.  I have seen many people use direct drive outrunners in other applications for RC with great success and I think it would work well here as well.  The great thing about outrunners is that they create a lot of torque and typically create smaller amp loads.

swathdiver, do you have anything that gives final drive wheel speed needed for accurate scale speed per tank.  With this it is easier to figure which motor to use and regulate your speed via motor kv and voltage.


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