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ballast tank pump help needed - 6/2/2009 2:17 PM   
theraven


 

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hi
can someone pease tell me if there is a 12v pump for a ballast tank which will empty and fill
and is prefably submergable the tank is roughly 3ltr
many thx
theraven



< Message edited by theraven -- 6/2/2009 2:19 PM >

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 6/3/2009 6:06 PM   
subsinker



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Status: offline 		Hi,
   I am assuming that you are using a ballast tank to compress air and fill with water.  Graupner makes pumps for that.  To empty the tank, just release a valve and the air pressure will force the water from the tank.  No need for any fancy reversing switches, etc. 

   Thats how Chris Cloke does it with his Sheerline subs.  Works pretty well.

                 Pete

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 6/3/2009 6:57 PM   
theraven


 

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thx for reply do u no number or name of ths pump?
thx again
mick

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 6/8/2009 2:25 AM   
Nuke Mechanic



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Status: offline 		Why do you need it to be submersible?  If you can keep it in the dry section I can lead you to many more options. Cheaper ones aswell.   If you are going to use a submersible I would go with a  sump pump, but they are large.


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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 7/14/2009 4:54 PM   
theraven


 

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Status: offline 		hi all
still having probs trying to sort out ballast tank
right i have made a watertight tube , no holes in it at mo..
wha i need to kmow is..
1, if i just put pumps on it to fill/empty would that work ok? vacum issues?
2, do i need 2 pumps to fill /empty
3, does the tube need holes to fill?
if some body can tell me or point inright dirction for a novice on tanks
that would be greatly appreiacted
many thx

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/10/2009 7:42 PM   
Turbulent


 

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/18/2009 1:09 PM   
fgroza


 

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Status: offline 		Go to an auto parts store and buy a front windshield washer pump for a 1990 Volvo, it costs about $9 here in the states.
Frank

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/28/2009 5:21 AM   
AQUASUB


 

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Yes go to Napa uto parts and get the winshield pump for a 1995 volvo 850 they are 8.50 $ they area gear p[ump and 12 or 6 vdc will pump alot of water ,can even be used in my hydraulics systems .I will be posting here alot more stuff so stay tuned.
30 year sub builder and have made many advancements to this great hobby .
See my ballast system that is not pressurized so that the entire tank is used and the pump is not stressed,works very well and to scale!Also my on board air compressor sytem for even larger subs.

Have agreat day Dave



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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/28/2009 6:44 PM   
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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/29/2009 1:42 AM   
AQUASUB


 

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Status: offline 		Be sure to seal the head area of the pump so that it can go in the water,another nice thing about this pump is that it becomes water cooled.

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/29/2009 3:16 PM   
Skip Asay


 

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Status: offline 		"See my ballast system that is not pressurized so that the entire tank is used and the pump is not stressed,works very well and to scale!"

A prime example of how this guy takes credit where it's not due. "His" system, which uses 2 one way valves, has been in use since the Albacore came out in 1997. He's added the ability to pull some air from the WTC which is an invitation to disaster. Another problem is that he advocates a gear or peristaltic type pump which don't have very high volume so it certainly wouldn't be very efficient in anything other than a small boat.

Unless you're compressing the air inside the ballast tank, baffles are a waste of time since the only time they would be useful is when the tank is not full. But this only occurs during the transition of either emptying or filling at which point the water will gather at the front of the tank while diving and at the back while surfacing. Well, guess what? That's exactly what you'd want anyway!


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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/29/2009 8:06 PM   
AQUASUB


 

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Which part isnt pressurised then.????????? the tank may not be pressurised but then the WTC will be.  br/>
As the name discribes only the ballast tank is non pressurized,of course the casing gets a negative vacume but not enough to cause a leak,in my casing desighne the more external or internal negative pressure the better,can you say that about the other desighnes?
Mine is 100% all the taime water tight unless it is opened,even if the latches are left desingaged of the casing the vacume will seal the casing!
The deeper it goes the tighter the seal not bad for a misleading subber.
Also my ballast system will auto bail the casing if any water gets in ,does yours do that,can you duplicate that system for any sub ,yes ,the pump puts out an amazing amount of water ,I have a Robbe U-31 that was converted with my system the tank is just over a litter in volume the sub will dive in under a minute and serface like a dream most of all it will hover with ease and will adjust to any oxigen content of any lake or boyancy without having to adjust the subs inherent boyancy!
In other words guys it works just like the full size subs trim tanks,they dont go messing around with the boyancy that was built into the sub ,they just dive and adjust the amount  of water in the tanks,plain and simple.

So if you have a truly good casing that is desigined from the start to be water tight not a compromise than you will benifit from my system,there are toys and then are RC Subs that have what it takes to go deep and play for free ,why pay for the gas that brings her up and heaven forbid if you run out of gas ,she ain't coming back ,what a nail biter guys I certainly don't need that kind of drama,it would give me a hart condition!
Mine is different just better and you can build it for pennies on the dallar.

In another site RC Groups it was mentioned if a gas system could be added to my system,of course!Why not Skip gave some thing about the pump not letting the gas by.Wow is he wrong,very surprised,just make a deticated sub system for it in other words 2 systems and one way vent valves ,Ill make a dia gram.

Dave

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/29/2009 8:51 PM   
AQUASUB


 

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Status: offline 		A prime example of how this guy takes credit where it's not due. "His" system, which uses 2 one way valves, has been in use since the Albacore came out in 1997. He's added the ability to pull some air from the WTC which is an invitation to disaster. Another problem is that he advocates a gear or peristaltic type pump which don't have very high volume so it certainly wouldn't be very efficient in anything other than a small boat.

Unless you're compressing the air inside the ballast tank, baffles are a waste of time since the only time they would be useful is when the tank is not full. But this only occurs during the transition of either emptying or filling at which point the water will gather at the front of the tank while diving and at the back while surfacing. Well, guess what? That's exactly what you'd want anyway!

You are referring to the "Snort" one correct ?Read alot about that one.

Yes with a casing that is not designed for negative or even positive internal prerssures it would be a recipy for desaster,build it write the first time and you wont have to worry about it ,a no brainer.

I dont think the U-31 is considered a small sub ,do you?


Baffles, he baffles me all the time ,why would the full size subs builders go threw all that extra steel ,time and money to build baflles into there tanks,it not for good looks and certainly not for the budget cuts.
It is an established engineering standard to use baffles in any tank of water or fluid where the vessel moves another no brainer and again very surprised stetement from Skip Asay.
The tank as it fills must stabalize as much as possible and control the sloshing of the water,in so doing the sub dives and surfaces with much more stability.
During transition as he said is where the sloshing must be controled and is only necessary in large tanks ,but even small tanks benifit from this simple adition to the designe,it costs very little and does a great job as is done on the big boys.
Once the tank is almost full the sloshing effect is gone or minimized as not to effect the subs ballance and eventualy when full is completly gone.
Put it this way ,with no baffles the sub starts to dive and as he wants  you to build the water sloshes out of control to the forward or aft of the tank and gets worse as more water enters the tank,more counter control is neede to compensate for this condition and the sub goes into a more severe dive and goes too deep than what was wanted,why the water is all up front of the tank   
Not good engineering guys,here is what i do you can do it its easy and yes any type of system can be used unless its a water only or piston tank system,duh.

The water enters the tank,it is controled by baffles that have holes to alow only a smaller amount of  water to pass thrugh at levels you have drilled,and around the disks.This controls the sloshing like a charm without inhibiting the amount of flow in and out of the tank.
The sub dives with a controled rate of angle that the dive plains can handle at any speed just like the full size guys do even yes you bet siving nice and level which is preferd,if anyone says they havent seen a sub do that then they havent been on a full size sub during a dive,remeber they say maintain a level bubble at diving,unless its an emrgency dive then its balls to the walls and plains to full duwn!.
To me it looks alot more dignafied any way. 

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/29/2009 8:55 PM   
AQUASUB


 

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/29/2009 8:57 PM   
AQUASUB


 

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/29/2009 10:33 PM   
Skip Asay


 

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As for baffles, as usual, a lot of bandwidth wasted comparing real subs with models. I've said it before, I'll say it again - for a hard, vented tank which is always either 100% full of air or 100% full of water, it just isn't necessary. Real boats dive with the bow down and surface with the bow up.....unless they're standing still. In over 30 years of building these "toys", I've never had a problem and I've never used baffles.

"So if you have a truly good casing that is desigined from the start to be water tight not a compromise than you will benifit from my system,there are toys and then are RC Subs that have what it takes to go deep and play"

Since there are literally THOUSANDS of WTCs with end caps that have been working well for years, I'd be quite comfortable in saying they're not toys.

"why pay for the gas that brings her up"

I didn't know that we were discussing gas here.

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/29/2009 10:42 PM   
Skip Asay


 

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Status: offline 		"In another site RC Groups it was mentioned if a gas system could be added to my system,of course!Why not Skip gave some thing about the pump not letting the gas by.Wow is he wrong,very surprised,just make a deticated sub system for it in other words 2 systems and one way vent valves ,Ill make a dia gram."

No. I'm not wrong. You try to get water past a gear- or peristaltic-type pump. But if you're talking about adding even more valves, that shoots the heck out of the KISS Principle, don't you think? And gives Murphy that much more ammunition.

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/30/2009 1:39 AM   
AQUASUB


 

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Lets see we will start with the last statement.

First i am not pushing the gas past the pump to beginwith ,read the post carefully,another system would have to be installed and only to blow the water out right? So only some one way valves in the tank walls going gee guess which way? Out!.

The tank for the gas can go inside of the ballast tank just like usual and trigered by the same way no biggie,basicly the same thing you have done got it.


Baffles ,first of all what do you have against baffles?Just because I use them doesn't mean it should not be used by the comon subber let them deside by comon sence not  by you alone.Let me be a bit more dicriptive for those not understanding the reason why they are made.
Also no matter how much you compress the air in the tank it will still have sloshing,you cant compress water,so where did he get that part truly baffles me.

Take a bottle of water like a big soda bottle  for instance put a cup of water in it,lay it on its side then move it forward or back ,what happens guys,you get  sloshing ,not good because it will cause a shift of waight and it osilates back and forth causing more sloshing,this is a liquid not a solid right,basic phisics here and by adding simple baffles it iliminates this bad condition making for a rock solid sub that dives very scale like and under complete control .And especialy iliminating what Skip says that you want water to slosh forward,how much water man, till she goes out of ballance and one has to compensate with up dive plains hopeing she will recover.Not in my Navy!

Why put up with that when a nice even level dive is acomplished each and every time as do the big boys,my systems are bassed on those full sized vessels systems and why not ,have you seen the prototype models the builders make ,there very similar to the full babby in every possible detail and yes they put baffles in there tanks.
For the most important time durring the dive the "transition period" as Skip said ,gee thats what there for to control the unwanted sloshing not to catch fish..
Sure a tank can  not have them and get descent results but again one can not get away from the laws of phisics and liquids in motion. Only poor engineering and compromising build would produce a sub that did not have them installed.Air craft have for decades,subs,ships and even your cars gas tank has them.
Here is what i am installing in my Ravell Gato also see build .



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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/30/2009 2:12 AM   
AQUASUB


 

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Status: offline 		As for the question about my U-31s coil ,its about watercooling your sub,he still feels its not a good thing,to compicated,certainly not expensive,not to mention what he even said that the heat build up will expand the air inside of the casing,or my unmatched motors to drive,havent changed one yet,but I think he fears the extra 2 tiny holes in the casing leaking,give me a greak guys the model "T" went out years ago we are in the Jet age now performance is the rule with longevity,again big boys do it.
Its called a heat exchanger and no Skip putting more gears on the drive wont make her run better she runs exceptionaly long and well. This sub has seriouse power not like what is on a sub with a 2 in prop,she can move out very fast and stay going fast for a long time without any fear of burning out the motor or just cruise around at mast depth four hours.

An industrial grade cordless drill motor/drive gives this babby a nasty power curve that makes you think she is Nueclear!
Cacharadon all i would have to do is go deeper and fire my exploding torpes, watch out they do some damage



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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/30/2009 2:43 AM   
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Status: offline 		Trying to understand your logic here.

So when pump starts it pushes water into the tank, and air vents out the wtc, keeping in with a neutral pressure difference. I appreciate this avoids the problem of overfilling the tank, as it simply vents outside. However to surface you pump the water out creating a vacuum inside with possible problems (true that RCABS has same issue). On reaching surface you need to open valve to balance pressure again.


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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/30/2009 2:35 PM   
AQUASUB


 

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Status: offline 		Yes that is correct the valve is opened to alow air bach into the casing.This action also ventilates the casing if one has batteries that might be expelling dangerouse gasses from building up.

Dave 




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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/30/2009 2:56 PM   
Skip Asay


 

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Status: offline 		"its about watercooling your sub,he still feels its not a good thing,to compicated,certainly not expensive,not to mention what he even said that the heat build up will expand the air inside of the casing,or my unmatched motors to drive,havent changed one yet,but I think he fears the extra 2 tiny holes in the casing leaking"

No, I don't "fear" the "extra 2 tiny holes". All I've said is that, with PROPER ENGINEERING, it's totally unnecessary. According to what you've written, you have 16 amp hours of battery and that you get either 2 hours or 4 hours of run time (can't you make up your mind?). At 2 hours, that means you're drawing EIGHT AMPS of current. Sorry, but that's way too much. But the real problem here is that you're so closed minded that you won't even try to prove me wrong, you'll just attack me every which way from Sunday. I'll issue that challenge again - add a 2:1 gearbox AFTER the cordless motor's gearbox and see what happens. I will GUARANTEE you will at least double your run time and, since the motor won't be loaded down so much you will also see an increase in speed. BUT, if you do find the nerve to try this, I will need to have independent verification since you've already proven multiple times that you are not a man of your word.

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/30/2009 4:53 PM   
AQUASUB


 

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Status: offline 		Ok sounds good lets go over this again since you insist to be proven wrong.
First I never said that the U-31 by Robbe runs for 4 hours staright where are you fabricating that baffles me again ,she does run for 2  hours and a bit   at a normal walking speed.
Propper Engineering is what I am talking about not cutting corners no compromises especialy in the secound most important part of your sub,engineered not to fail under normal circumstances as propperly educated engineers have found to be true,please go prove those guys wrong!No mater what motor you use it will still generate heat got it,I hope so.
Now again please be reminded that this sub has a very round bow ,that is not pointed and hence requires alot of thrust to get to pass through the water at an exceptable speed,she is I believe some 9 inches in diamiter ,that is a big fat boy and she makes quite a wake with a huge subduction zones on her sides,nice!
But this performance has a price as alot of power must be braught to bear and keeping the drive motor cool is an important even esiential part of this powerfull sub.
Her prop is 5.5 inches in diamiter and the blades have a not to severe pitch that I adjusted to that partiqular drive to match as much as possible the full size prop.

Now Skip I would suggest that you get your info from Telimitry that will not gues or hypothisise the results just like engineers do that is fair and totally acseptable for you to prove your point,as I have already done and will repost those results.

First run was done with the cooling system on.

Secound run with cooling off.

The results showed that after a much shorted time the motor became much warmer after only a short period of time at the same speed ,also internal air pressure rose and was not good for most casings will leak from internal pressure build ups as you Skip mentioned before on RC Groups after I braught it up,its just normal law of thermal dynamics.

You get the same drive as mine, I can give you the part numbers,add you great idea of another gear box to the already 23 to one planetary all ball bearing one and see if your right,or should I say "put your money where your mouth is "sure she will run longer but she wont go any faster and be more effecient,not to mention the extra complexity on that gearbox,man what happened to your KISS thing it just took a dump.
Simplicity with performance and reliability is the way to go on any sub these days as its all out there its just a mater to get it into your sub.

I use the Eagle Tree systems Telemitry  that I am very happy with,so easy to use!
Only a realtime telimitry sytem or a logger would be acseptable in this challange as it is the norm in engineering projects.

I also make a drive for smaller subs that is also watercooled and conssits of a regular can 12vdc 550 hs motor.These motors are inexpensive and are the most common motor out there and for good reason they are very strong and have a huge power curve,run slow very smothly and run very cool.However in a totaly inclosed container the motor should be water cooled for the same above reasons,as all motors should be ,its got nothing to do with the wrong gearing to prop crap,the geare box is a 3.5 to 2.5 ballbearing unit sealed in grease,very smoth running.thats normal gearing to a large range of props and i have never had to change one yet due to a overheat,once from a fishingline though LOL.

So lets see is it a good idea to watercool your sub,in my opinion and that of Marine engineers it most definatly is.Since Skip needs to be proved wrong I shall do so again.
Some will say RC subs are not like the full size brothers,but one forgets they are more similar than one thinks,they run in water,they produce heat,they are totaly inclosed in a casing and use much of the same type of power and expected high performance and the more we learn and apply those hard learned prinsaples to our hobby the better our subs will run and in the end save you money,thats important especialy if you have a large fleet as I do,they must run well or the system is scraped just like the Navy does in a hart beat.And that said is by no maens a waist of bandwith as Skip would say,besides what gives him the right to say what is?As far I last herd this is still a free country,he do better in Russia.


Dave Amur Sub Yard 

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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/30/2009 4:59 PM   
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RE: ballast tank pump help needed - 9/30/2009 9:40 PM   
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Status: offline 		aquasub/aquadeep - does this jog your memory?

"just cruise around at mast depth four hours."

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