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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/7/2012 9:41 PM   
Teus



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From: Friesland, NETHERLANDS
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mein Duff


Now That's the spirit !!! WWI aircraft are supposed to be dirty and covered in oil...that's simply the way they were and should be replicated today..



Yeah, An electric WW-I plane with sound module And oil simulator....................



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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/8/2012 10:55 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		I bit the bullet and installed my elevator linking system. And it sort of works. For some reason movement on the right control horns moves both elevators in unison, but moving the left elevator horn allows considerable "slop" in the coordination. I'm guessing it has to do with fractional "slop" in the tongue/slot of the brass parts. I can probably fix this. If not, I'll just ignore it. After all this is just a back up system. And even if it only "sort of works" that's better than it not working at all in the event of a cable failure (and even then it would need to be the failure of the left side cables).

*****

Yes, it just looks like the slot is a tad too loose. I can simply fill the slot (with either epoxy or JB Weld) and recut the slot for a tighter fit.

*****

Yep. all it took was a drop of epoxy in the slot and a new thinner slot.

*****

Hmm...turns out it wasn't as easy as that. The new slot is just the barest degree off angle, so the elevator halves didn't line up correctly. So I had to work on the slot, which re-introduced the slop. We're talking about a fraction of a millimeter on the slot translating into as much as a half inch of slop on one side of the elevator. Again, this isn't an issue at all if all four elevator pull-pull cables are properly adjusted.

< Message edited by abufletcher -- 11/8/2012 4:24 PM >

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/9/2012 2:38 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		The solution to the slop was a spot of electrical solder on one side of the tab, carefully filed down to match the slot. Now both elevator halves are aligned and move in unison.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/12/2012 3:28 PM   
abufletcher



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From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: offline 		Now that the tail feathers are ready to cover, it's back to tests of the covering procedure. So far all my tests have only resulted in "interesting failures." I started with a test frame covered with Koverall and then given two coats of Minwax Polycrylic to fill the weave. This was sufficient to create a semi-glossy surface. Next I applied pieces of the colored silk using either wall-paper paste or more Polycrylic. The wall-paper paste is watered down to the consistency of milk and easily flows through the silks when applied with a brush. The Polycrylic was used right out of the can. (The piece second from the left was applied with PolyC.)

With both the wall-paper paste and the PolyC there were some small problems with wrinkles/bubbles in the wet silk, but most of these disappeared when dry. The wall-paper paste actually seemed a little better in this regard. Unfortunately, the paste didn't adhere at all to the underlying PoluC coats and the silk peeled right off. So that's no good. The polyC to polyC bond through the silk was, on the other hand, very solid. So that looks like the only option. I'm not even considering dope, both because of the toxicity and because in humid Japan, blushing is a huge problem.

One problem I hadn't anticipated is the somewhat disturbing moire optical pattern created by visual interference between the "grid" of the Koveall and the "grid" of the silk. At first I thought this was because the silk was distorted. But, anytime two overlapping grids are not completely aligned or not completely the same size, you can get this purely optical effect. It's only visible when backlite and perhaps only from certain angles, but that's still a problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moir%C3%A9_pattern

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/12/2012 4:15 PM   
abufletcher



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From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: offline 		I'm also going to test some paint possibilities, but frankly I'm not expecting any more luck in that area.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/12/2012 4:29 PM   
abufletcher



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From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: offline 		Good news on that Moire problem! It occurred to me that a "third grid" (the fabric on the other side) might in fact cancel out the effect...and so it does!

*****

Note: The wall-paper paste does a perfectly good job of attaching the silk to the polyspan. And the combination creates a very puncture resistant surface (though not as tough as the silk over Koverall, which is virtually puncture-proof).

< Message edited by abufletcher -- 11/13/2012 5:23 AM >

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/14/2012 1:29 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		My tests with the silk over Koverall are coming along. I found I was getting fewer "teeny bubbles" on larger pieces, when (after laying the silk over the Koverall) I spritzed it with water. Then after smoothing out any bubbles with my finger, I brushed on the PolyC. A few bubbles still develop, but then seem to shrink out when dry. I'm still uncertain about how to apply the silk to the edges. On my test frame, I'm just "painting on" the PolyC, but on the model I may need to really "stick" the edges first with dope. I'm also still experimenting with the numbers of coats needed to fill the Koverall, attach the silk, and then fill the silk to a smooth finish. So far, I've used 2 coats straight from the can to fill the Koverall, and then a 1:1 thinned coat to apply the silk. I've continued with 2 more coats of the thinned PolyC, but I should probably just have used it straight.

Overall, I'm happy with the color and transparency of this method although as you can see, the underlying material of the frame is readily visible and becomes more so as the fabric becomes saturated with PolyC.

One more question is at what "depth" to apply the markings. Should I add them after I get a fairly glossy finish, and then just fuel-proof? Or should I "sandwich" the markings between a couple of coats of PolyC?

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/14/2012 10:37 AM   
Teus



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From: Friesland, NETHERLANDS
Status: offline 		Don,

Just ran in to a whole different approach for covering and painting colors on our models:

Photo Fabric


They have 3 classes cotton and 1 silk, even on a roll of 120" long! (print and cover your wing in one piece ). I just saw a movie how to print and thats very easy.

If we can find a way to attach to our models, maybe balsarite or a similar product and shrink it with a dope that don't disturb the ink from our printers than this product could be a winner. Than we can print the fabric in any color we want.

When suitable than we can print a whole wing panel with all the markings in once

It's just an idea

I think I order some and do some tests, or had anyone else already tried this?

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/14/2012 10:47 AM   
abufletcher



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From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: offline 		VERY neat indeed! Sure beats trying to tape tissue to photo paper to run it through an injet. This could indeed be a really useful product. But I think I'll continue to paint my own markings, if you don't mind. Pretty soon the CAD guys are going to have us adding the weathering in the computer!

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/14/2012 1:33 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: online 		Lozenge time for the printer

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/17/2012 6:42 AM   
JRMS



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From: Edinboro, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Hello Abufletcer,
We talked in your other thread (Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses) about
your verson you are modeling. While looking for exaples for that thread I found a great
site that has such a large number of WWI photos. From it I found these planes, that to me
look like what you are working on. Hope they are of help and here is the site.
http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/first%20world%20war?before=1339110152


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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/17/2012 3:18 PM   
abufletcher



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From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: offline 		Thanks for posting those. I can make out at least three different styles of crosses in those photos! Also, note that one of them shows crosses on the underside of the top wing. That was, to the best of my knowledge, only an early war usage.

Well, basically, as the discussion has raged on, I've been waiting for paint to dry. Coat after coat after coat of it...in the cold, humid workshop. I now have a nice test frame with 4-5 coats of PolyC for the Koverall/Silk sandwich and then two coats of white enamel for the background for a cross. It's still a bit tacky but when that's hard I'll outline and paint a cross with the black enamel.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/19/2012 9:14 AM   
abufletcher



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From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: offline 		As you all know, I've been spending the last few days exploring how to free-hand paint the German Pattee crosses following what I'm now reasonably confident was something close to the original process. So I thought I'm move that "progress" over to my build thread.

The first two photos below are stills from WWI footage from the Albatros factory. The first still shows a worker (wearing white) lifting a pattern for the cross onto the wing. Matz informed us that the pattern was made of thin sheet metal. The second still shows an outline of the cross on the underside of the wing.

The third and fourth photos show my attempts to mimic this on may test panel. The wing is covered with the Koverall/Silk combination. The outline was made with a fine-tipped permanent marker around a pattern cut from photo paper. Then, using thinned enamel, I free-handed the inside edges of the outline, then filled in the center with a wider brush, and completed the tips with a pointed brush. The brush marks are very minimal and only visible from certain angles in certain light...probably a lot like the original.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/19/2012 10:42 AM   
GianFrancesco


 

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From: RiminiRN, ITALY
Status: offline 		I did the Patee crosses on the Albatros CIII exactly as you have described; the only difference was that I have used a female pattern and the pen was a Staedler draughtsman ink pen.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/19/2012 11:59 AM   
abufletcher



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quote:

ORIGINAL: GianFrancesco
...I have used a female pattern...


See now, I would have called that a "stencil." (We were discussing pattern/stencil and how they could both translate as "Schablone" in German). In Spanish it would be "el patron" vs. "la plantilla."

But either way works fine for our models. I was just wondering how on earth workers in the Albatros factory could have used a "stencil" on the full scale aircraft. The answer is: They didn't.

I will say though, that I find it easier to precisely place a ("male") pattern than a ("female") stencil. I never know if I've really gotten the stencil in exactly the right place.


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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/20/2012 2:20 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		I'm close to that point of no return where I either go ahead with the colored silk idea or need to abandon it and accept that I'd have to "paint" the model. Paint might include using "tinted" PolyC or actual latex paint.

But I really really like the color of the silk...and it's super strong...and it has a nicely transparent/translucent look...though possibly a bit too translucent to be perfectly scale. In the end, there just isn't a perfectly scale solution to the covering problem, in my opinion. Scale materials just don't behave properly and smaller scales.


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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/20/2012 4:53 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: online 		Cover it with the silk.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/20/2012 4:54 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Thanks for the shove over the edge! It may not be perfect, but it'll be unique!

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/21/2012 3:52 AM   
abufletcher



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From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: offline 		Here's a question: What would you add to PolyC if you wanted to "cloud" the dried appearance a bit, in other words, produce more of a milky white finish (almost like PolyC looks right in the can)? This would cut down the transparency.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/21/2012 5:26 AM   
Mein Duff



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Status: offline 		Just saw a TV show where the restorer recommended using corn starch for all types of paints if you want to take the sheen off them....probably would be a good place to start....but I think talcum powder would do it also.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/21/2012 6:11 AM   
abufletcher



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From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: offline 		I don't mind the sheen...in fact, the old photos of the CI and other period aircraft show a good deal of sheen...often enough to show reflections. What I wondering about would be a way to add (paint of some sort?) to the PolyC to create a whiter "underbase" for the silk. I think this would result in the fabric being less transparent while still being the same color.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/21/2012 7:51 AM   
GianFrancesco


 

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From: RiminiRN, ITALY
Status: offline 		I think that some color paint cream or mild brown could help to reduce the transparency; but I'm not sure.......
I did the job with a very thinned cream color onto the stright Koverall not bad but far away from the excellent result you have got with the Habotai silk

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/21/2012 8:55 AM   
jeffo


 

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Status: offline 		Abu,I'm building a 1/4 scale albatros ciii,a Darrell Hansen design with a scale airfoil(very thin).There is no C.G. on the plans or no incedence.All I can do is scale the prints.The wings have a lot of pos. incedence.I think it is because the airfoil is so thin.Any help from you be helpful.Jeffo

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/21/2012 11:12 AM   
abufletcher



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From: Zentsuji, JAPAN
Status: offline 		Jeff, I don't have any immediate answers for you, either because I've forgotten, or I never knew in the first place! But I'll see what I can find out...or rediscover. BTW, a quarter scale CIII will be a very impressive bird!

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 11/21/2012 11:12 AM   
GianFrancesco


 

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Status: offline 		In my Alb. CIII i have the CG position at 22% of the chord of the upper wing; a bit nose heavy but a lot "safe" in particular in the landing

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