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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/1/2012 6:09 PM   
Mein Duff



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Status: offline 		Nice foliage Don.... reminds me of my growing up years in New England this time of year..... yes, some of this mini-scale stuff is a real pain....I have the same endless deliberations everyday...funny thing is nobody would ever notice probably, but there is always that fear ( in my case ) that an expert on this aircraft may point it out.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/2/2012 12:03 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		My conclusion though is that no matter how I did the stitching it would be non-scale in one way or another. And worse yet, non-scale stitching might actually detract from the overall scale effect of the model. So I'm not concerned with some hypothetical scale judge saying something like "it's missing the stitching."

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/2/2012 1:08 AM   
JRMS



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Status: offline 		Just a (Some Day) thought, you could paint the stitches.
I have seen modelers make wheels that role paint dots on to simulate rivites.
Maybe it could be done to make a shade line/dash to infer that a stitch is there.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/2/2012 3:54 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		I've already experimented with a pencil line. But without the raised thread it just looks cartoonish. On the fuselage I did finally decide that making small dots with a black permanent marker was going to look more scale than hammering in hundreds of actual teeny nails. Even the smallest nails looked oversize and stood out too strongly on the fuselage...taking away from the whole scale effect. While hundreds of little brass nail heads would probably have "played well" with the crowd, it's just not that apparent in any of the period photos.

The problem with the stitches is really one of scale. I believe the full-scale stitches were about 6mm wide and placed roughly 30mm apart. So at 1/6 scale, they should only be 2mm wide and be spaced ever 5mm. But the rib caps themselves are about 6mm wide. I'd be willing to put in the effort to do full, functional stitching but not if it means putting hundreds of holes through the rib caps (let alone the difficulty in doing that).

Bear in mind that the ribs themselves are made from 3mm balsa. Now it I had made them all scale from, say, 1/32 ply with scale caps and the authentic strip of fabric laced to the ribs (before covering), I could have scale stitching.



< Message edited by abufletcher -- 12/2/2012 10:21 AM >

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/2/2012 8:31 AM   
jeffo


 

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Status: offline 		abby,are you going to have the dragondile on your fuse?-jeffo

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/2/2012 9:49 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		That was definitely cool, but that was on a CIII.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/3/2012 1:44 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		I made another attempt at the rib stitching. This time I ironed on a torn strip of Solartex, then did the Z-stitching, then laid down the moistened silk and doped that in place. Using a curved needle, the stitch goes under the solartex strip (and possibly also the underlying fabric). These stitches are still twice as wide as would be scale and the single strip of solartex is very delicate and the thread can actually pull through it when tightening up the stitch.

[PHOTO UPLOAD DOESN'T WORK]

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/3/2012 7:06 AM   
abufletcher



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This isn't the style of stitching used on the Albatros but it's still informative to watch.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/3/2012 1:41 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		I like this one best http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCDTmy60R68 , even though the rabbit and palm tree got me through this wing.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/3/2012 1:46 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		I would try stitching to a piece of silkspan and then trim it to just bigger than the rib stitch. Then dope it over the rib. I tried it with Koverall and it is too hard to puncture when unsupported.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/3/2012 3:47 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Yeah, that's a good video. I think I watched it back when I was working the stitching for my Snipe. Even though these videos don't show the Z-stitching they at least motivated me to try again. Here's what I have. First I laid down a 2mm strip of double sided tape, but left on the plastic backing. (I could probably leave this off as it's not scale on the CI.) The I marked the hole locations on the top of the wing and then using the same locations marked the bottom of the wing. Then with a sewing awl, I made initial holes through the covering and through the edges of the rib cap strips.

For the stitching itself, the thread comes up from the bottom (say, on the right side) than goes across and down into the hole on the left. Then on the bottom it goes back across to the starting hole and comes up again. Next the thread goes diagonally from the right hole and then down into the next left hole. Then, on the bottom, it goes across, and then back up on the right. Then, I bring the needle back across to the left and slip it under the diagonal thread, then pull the "knot" tight into the corner and put the needle back down into the (left) hole. Then it goes across on the bottom and that's one stitch. With some practice, I could be able to do maybe one rib in 5 minutes...and all the ribs in a couple of days of effort. The Z-stitching looks reasonably scale on the top, but the straight across stitches on the bottom are wrong for the Albatros.

The question is does this method of stitching look good enough to warrant the effort. After my initial Frankenstein-sized attempts, I think I've finally got the stitching down to a scale size. The tricky bit is how to make this work with the CDL silk. What I would have to do is just to apply the silk directly over the stitching as I dope the silk to the underlying fabric. That IS the only way. Believe me. The way it would look is the way it would look. No painting.

TFF, I don't think it would be possible to "stitch silkspan" since there has to be something solid, either the rib or a reinforcing tape, keeping "left and right" apart. I could use the usual modeler's trick cutting strips of "threads on backing" but that wouldn't give me the Z-stitch. But I suppose it might be better than nothing.


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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/3/2012 6:05 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		I ran a z stitch in my wife's sewing machine on silkspan. It did not work with Koverall. The stitch was too big for what I wanted, it would have worked for 1/4 scale. It was as small as her machine would go, but a better programable machine would easily do it. A square frame with the silkspan attached do your hand stitching. Then cut it apart. It would be purely fo.

Your stitching looks good though. Lots of work.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/4/2012 12:39 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Do sewing machines actually do a Z-stitch as seen in my photo? I can't find a single image on google with that pattern. There are "zig-zag" stitches but that's not the same. Besides, doing the stitches on silkspan (by hand) then cutting them out and pasting them to the wing seems like it would be as much work as just doing them on the wing. (And I still can't imagine how it would be possible to do these stitches on the delicate silkspan.)

< Message edited by abufletcher -- 12/4/2012 1:46 AM >

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/4/2012 3:23 AM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		The modern sewing machines can sew your cloths together with stitches that look like dump trucks, roses, whatever. Many you can load the shaped you want. I think the one I tried was "lighting." Some machines have 600 stitches built in.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/4/2012 4:07 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Yep, lightning stitch it is! (But where would I access such a technological wonder, I wonder.)

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/4/2012 7:22 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Reality check. Here's a photo of the rib stitching on the stab of the Vintage Aviator DV. This shows the Z-shaped stitches before the first coat of dope and before rib tapes and further coats of dope. All this suggests that stitching would look very subtle indeed on the finished machine.

If you squint your eyes, you hardly see the stitches at all. What would probably be more visible are rib tapes.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/4/2012 7:33 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Here is what I believe German/Astrian CDL looked like fresh from the factory.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/4/2012 4:14 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		Actually all rib stitching is very subtle if you look at real airplanes. The rib tapes fair in enough that they are more like bumps than ridges. Part of the reason they are there is to streamline the thread out, besides help locking it in place. They seem to be most noticeable on the over-restored airplanes where everything is shiny and you get a good reflection off the surface.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/7/2012 6:19 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Here's another photo (thanks, John) of the DIII that shows the color of the fabric. Being honest with myself, this is lighter than my bamboo silk method would produce.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 12/7/2012 6:57 AM   
GianFrancesco


 

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Status: offline 		If someone notices it, you can always say that the one depicted in the photo is a repro of an Albatros produced by OAW !

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 1/11/2013 11:44 PM   
tfowen53


 

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Abu,

Hope everything is ok, haven't had any updates on the Albatros in awhile.

Tom



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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 1/11/2013 11:51 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Yes, everything's fine. I took a 2 week trip to the US for Xmas...and picked up another can of non-tautening nitrate. And since it's now winter so the humidity is reasonable (75% vs. over 90% in the spring and summer), doping the silk to the koverall will be the next task. I also brought back my old EIII and have spent this last week restoring that model.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 1/15/2013 12:49 AM   
eagledancer


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: abufletcher

Yeah, that's a good video. I think I watched it back when I was working the stitching for my Snipe. Even though these videos don't show the Z-stitching they at least motivated me to try again. Here's what I have. First I laid down a 2mm strip of double sided tape, but left on the plastic backing. (I could probably leave this off as it's not scale on the CI.) The I marked the hole locations on the top of the wing and then using the same locations marked the bottom of the wing. Then with a sewing awl, I made initial holes through the covering and through the edges of the rib cap strips.

For the stitching itself, the thread comes up from the bottom (say, on the right side) than goes across and down into the hole on the left. Then on the bottom it goes back across to the starting hole and comes up again. Next the thread goes diagonally from the right hole and then down into the next left hole. Then, on the bottom, it goes across, and then back up on the right. Then, I bring the needle back across to the left and slip it under the diagonal thread, then pull the ''knot'' tight into the corner and put the needle back down into the (left) hole. Then it goes across on the bottom and that's one stitch. With some practice, I could be able to do maybe one rib in 5 minutes...and all the ribs in a couple of days of effort. The Z-stitching looks reasonably scale on the top, but the straight across stitches on the bottom are wrong for the Albatros.

The question is does this method of stitching look good enough to warrant the effort. After my initial Frankenstein-sized attempts, I think I've finally got the stitching down to a scale size. The tricky bit is how to make this work with the CDL silk. What I would have to do is just to apply the silk directly over the stitching as I dope the silk to the underlying fabric. That IS the only way. Believe me. The way it would look is the way it would look. No painting.

TFF, I don't think it would be possible to ''stitch silkspan'' since there has to be something solid, either the rib or a reinforcing tape, keeping ''left and right'' apart. I could use the usual modeler's trick cutting strips of ''threads on backing'' but that wouldn't give me the Z-stitch. But I suppose it might be better than nothing.


this is exactly how i did my 1/4 scale albatros. was worth the effort in my book

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 1/15/2013 1:31 AM   
abufletcher



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ORIGINAL: eagledancer
this is exactly how i did my 1/4 scale albatros. was worth the effort in my book


At 1/4 scale doing the Z-stitching won't be a problem. But at 1/6 scale the ribs (and rib caps) themselves are too wide to allow scale stitching. The ribs are 1/8 balsa so that's the minimum possible width of the stitch but would mean drilling hundreds of tiny holes through the tops and bottoms of the rib caps. And getting the holes aligned top and bottom would be its own challenge (though thanks to a book on doing full-scale ceconite covering I know how to do this). Finally, I just not sure how this would work together with my technique of covering the koverall with silk. I think I would have to do the stitching after adding the silk (and dope) but cutting thin straight strips of silk has proven difficult.

In the end, it boils down to me not trusting myself not to screws this up and end up with a result that looks terrible. Better I think to leave it off. I left stitching off of my SE5a and really now that I'm done with it, I hardly think about it. I'd be more inclined to do the stitching if I had planned ahead to be able to do it exactly it was done in the Albatros factories. As it is, I would have to work very hard to produce an artificial effect.


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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 3/22/2013 12:47 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		It's been a long, long time. Time to get rolling again. And first up is to give the flight surfaces (long since covered with SIG Koverall) their final "clear doped linen" color. As those of you who have followed my tortured things know, my plan is/was/should be/might be to use dope to adhere a "second covering" of appropriately colored silk onto the Koverall. But somewhere deep down, I guess I really don't want to do this...or feel that I'm missing some other technique to give it a nice "coffee stain" color.

In an old issue of the Japan RC magazine AirWorld, I found a profile of one of the best EIII models I've ever seen. And the color is A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y perfect! Now, just to get one of my club mates to look at the text and see if it gives some clue as to how this was achieved. Otherwise, I'll just go ahead with my silk-on-koverall technique.

[I'll post scans when the upload is working again.]

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