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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/16/2012 12:35 PM   
abufletcher



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ORIGINAL: abufletcher
Also, I think I'll take the precautionary step of adding additional connection points to the aileron lever in case I need more travel. I'll drill a second hole about 1/2'' short of one end and add a second tab about 1/2'' inward from the first tab on the other end.


Done and done.

< Message edited by abufletcher -- 10/16/2012 1:35 PM >

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/16/2012 1:41 PM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		I had a friend in high school who's dad built world class plastic models. One or two got completed a year, but it took 3-4 years a model. He had 20 models going at a time, but at most one got attention a day. Sometimes only a brush stroke and it was put up for a month.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/16/2012 2:09 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Jeez, I hope I'm not going that slowly! (But I suppose I am.)

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/16/2012 4:30 PM   
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I like the airbrush for the layering of weathering and such. I am having a lot of fun with it. It is great for painting insignia as well. Using low tack shelf paper as cheap friskett. This definately has WW1 implications.


Vertical - this is such a neat and effective way of weathering a model or making small details look more realiatic and less toy-miniature-unrealistic-too clean looking. Too little airbrushing and you don't notice the effect, too much and it just looks gaudy and overdone.

quote:

Don- I need to learn to use my airbrush more efficiently

Me too - need to get up to speed on this technique bigtime so Vertical you might be the go-to guy if you don't mind. Do you know of any handy websites to read up on the technique?

quote:

Don - One thing that I'm still concerned about is the possibility of the Koverall warping the built-in twist of the ailerons. They are still fairly flexible and it's vital that both are exactly the same (to provide identical washout). I thought about covering these in Natural (translucent white) Solartex.


Good beef-up on the trailing edge, the gusset should do the job. I'm watching colsely Don regarding how you cover the ailerons with the built in washout, as I have a similar situation with my wing-warper wings. I wonder if some way of clamping the structure as you cover it would help?

Bri

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/16/2012 5:42 PM   
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ORIGINAL: abufletcher

One thing that I'm still concerned about is the possibility of the Koverall warping the built-in twist of the ailerons. They are still fairly flexible and it's vital that both are exactly the same (to provide identical washout). I thought about covering these in Natural (translucent white) Solartex.



Yes, I think also.
I have not good experiences at covering of wings with wire edge, dope and fabric.
Wings with wire edge are filigree and not really stable.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/16/2012 7:19 PM   
vertical grimmace



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Status: offline 		On the airbrush, I think it is important to have a fairly good one. I really want a gravity fed, with cap to keep from spilling paint on my planes. Dual action is important as well. The bottles do not work well, and I have been using color cups. The gravity feed uses less PSI which will give better control, especially for weathering.
One thing I love, is the ability to shoot acrylic paints. Thin with windsheild washer fluid and add some Floetrol to help level it out. The paints are cheap, can be mixed to any shade, and can be found in small bottles at arts craft stores.
I have been searching plastic model websites for techniques. Look up pre shading and post shading. This can really only be done properly with an airbrush. A layer of color if you will.
U really need a compressor as well, or one of those little airbrush pump type I hear work well and are quiet.

An example of my airbrush work.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/16/2012 11:21 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Vertical, the equipment you're talking about (dual action airbrush with cup + compressor) is about a $300 investment. At least it would be here in Japan. I just wouldn't use it enough to justify that amount. My cheap, single-action, bottle-style airbrush with compressed air cans cost about $50. As far as the techniques you describe and show on your model (pre-shading, machine gun marks, camo-mottling) that's all strictly WWII stuff. For WWI RC modeling, I think the primary use of an airbrush is act as a "spray can" for custom paints. For example, applying metalizer paints with a brush looks terrible. Or I might not be able to find a spray can in the exact color of grey I want. In my opinion, it's better to hand-paint insignia if at all possible. The "weathering" needed is mostly grease and grit, so again, the airbrush is not the best tool for that. For example, to do oil leaking out from under a panel you might just dab on a drop of watered down paint and then blow on it through a straw. For "grime" just get your fingertip "dirty" with some pencil graphite (or actual dirt) and delicately rub areas around, say, hand-holds and around the cockpit. For overall "weathering" of the fabric covering, two common techniques are to slop on a "dirty wash" in the direction of the airflow (which helps to visually break up large expanses of evenly colored fabric) or even to rub lightly with a newspaper. Probably the best "weathering" comes from just not cleaning the model and every once in a while slapping on another coat of clear to seal in the naturally acquired filth.

For me, an airbrush remains primarily a WWII modeling tool.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 12:00 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Here is possible the best article ever about WWI weathering by Andy Hutson. The man is an artist and no airbrushing needed!



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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 12:09 AM   
abufletcher



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flying Fox
I'm watching colsely Don regarding how you cover the ailerons with the built in washout, as I have a similar situation with my wing-warper wings. I wonder if some way of clamping the structure as you cover it would help?


Actually, you needn't worry much with your wings since the wing-warping cables keep everything in place. The problem with my CI ailerons is that they are an "unsupported" structure. On the original they were welded out of steel tubing and thus completely rigid. I'll look into where I can add some gussets but the problem is that the wood itself twists quite easily. I might have to just rely on getting the covering properly taut on both sides and then rely on the fabric to hold the twist in place.


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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 12:26 AM   
vertical grimmace



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ORIGINAL: abufletcher

Vertical, the equipment you're talking about (dual action airbrush with cup + compressor) is about a $300 investment. At least it would be here in Japan. I just wouldn't use it enough to justify that amount. My cheap, single-action, bottle-style airbrush with compressed air cans cost about $50. As far as the techniques you describe and show on your model (pre-shading, machine gun marks, camo-mottling) that's all strictly WWII stuff. For WWI RC modeling, I think the primary use of an airbrush is act as a ''spray can'' for custom paints. For example, applying metalizer paints with a brush looks terrible. Or I might not be able to find a spray can in the exact color of grey I want. In my opinion, it's better to hand-paint insignia if at all possible. The ''weathering'' needed is mostly grease and grit, so again, the airbrush is not the best tool for that. For example, to do oil leaking out from under a panel you might just dab on a drop of watered down paint and then blow on it through a straw. For ''grime'' just get your fingertip ''dirty'' with some pencil graphite (or actual dirt) and delicately rub areas around, say, hand-holds and around the cockpit. For overall ''weathering'' of the fabric covering, two common techniques are to slop on a ''dirty wash'' in the direction of the airflow (which helps to visually break up large expanses of evenly colored fabric) or even to rub lightly with a newspaper. Probably the best ''weathering'' comes from just not cleaning the model and every once in a while slapping on another coat of clear to seal in the naturally acquired filth.

For me, an airbrush remains primarily a WWII modeling tool.

I will agree that items such as panel lines on the WWII aircraft or modern jets almost require an airbrush, but this too can be done b other means. Solvent washes etc. I can find many examples where I would have used my airbrush on my WW1 models had I had them available when doing my weathering. Primarily shading, shadowing. Around louvers and such.
I also think an airbrush is the best way to paint insignia as you end up with full scale brush marks on a 1/6th or 1/4 scale model. Especially if doing something difficult like an indian head on the side of a Neiport for example.
I understand not justifying the expense. That is why I am so new to them as I never really invested until now. The thing is, a good airbrush can be had for only $20 and a compressor can also be had for around $100. I got my stuff from Harbour freight. But there are several online sources. I think TCP is one website. Of course, you do have to spend some money for a really good airbrush and I am waiting until I can justify $100 for a new one. I have many big WWII scale competition projects coming up now, so it will be this winter.
You do amazing work though Don, and I would not want to side track you. I just thought I would mention it as a great tool for scale modeling, that seems to have been mostly ignored in RC.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 2:14 AM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		As an experiment, I clamped a length of 4x4mm hardwood onto the TE of one of the ailerons and this does nothing to stabilize the twisting. What might work is some (unfortunately non-scale) cross-bracing as in this test photo below.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 4:16 AM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		The covering is considered structural on full size planes; it will be plenty stiff once it is covered. Doubled covered like yours should be overkill.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 4:43 AM   
Mein Duff



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Thanks for posting those Andy Hutton articles.... I remember reading them also years ago....still have my copies as well.
I wonder what Andy has been up to lately, seems to have vanished from the scene....what an incredible talent...his BE2 pretty much sets the bar for me for weathering and detail.

Makes me realize sometimes why we spend so much time detailing an trying to get that special effect just right...doesn't really matter how you do it airbrush or not... mostly just takes patience, improvistation, and a keen eye.

I would however recommend a decent airbrush if one were to jump into airbrushing ( $100 range)...the contsant running smaller compressors are fine...I have even painted my 1/4 SE5 fuselage with my airbrush, using the largest tip possible, War Bird Colors thinned 50% with H2O worked very well.....took me a while, but very little over spray and wastage of expensive paint.

Needless to say, airbrushes require immediate cleaning so that the paint residue doesn't harden inside before the next session a few days later.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 4:43 AM   
pimmnz


 

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Status: offline 		Actually, on fabric covered airplanes the covering is not considered as structure. It is not used in any structural strength calculations, nor would any engineer accept it as part of the strength of an airframe. Metal, stressed skin types are another story, of course, as are tiny (up to 24") models where the tissue/dope covering can act as a 'stressed skin'. Abu, if there is one thing I got from my own WW1 types, it is to build the control surfaces as light as possible, use X bracing under the covering if needed, use ally weld rod outlines wherever possible, bend to the proper shape for those washed out ailerons as required, and use as light a covering as possible, without overtightening. The covering should not be be so tight as to stress the frame, as an example I use Solarfilm's 'Litespan' on the 1/4 scale WW1's ailerons, rudders and elevators. The stuff does not get brittle, does not get 'taught' and is basically stable. No stress is applied to the frame and it accepts most finishing methods. And everything stays as it was built, unless you walk it into a door, or wall, or try cartwheel landings, of course.
Evan, WB #12.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 5:13 AM   
TFF


 

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Status: offline 		Dont fly in fabric planes. One of the big question marks when Dacron came on the market the big question was will it be stiff enough like cotton and dope. On certified aircraft it is a major modification to change from cotton to Dacron as is recovering. You cant get aircraft cotton anymore so everyone is stuck making the change in time. It might not have been engineered in like a load factor, but the qualities were known and were relied upon to make it work. It is not just wrapping paper.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 7:23 AM   
abufletcher



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ORIGINAL: Mein Duff
Thanks for posting those Andy Hutton articles.... I remember reading them also years ago....still have my copies as well.


Is it "Hutton" or "Hutson?" When I first posted I wrote "Hutton" but then saw the name spelled (misspelled?) on the article as "Hutson." I also confuse him with David Hurrell who designed several really nice WWI models. I agree that his BE2 is just about everything anyone could ever hope to achieve. He definitely looks at his model as a canvas. And maybe that's the difference. His preferred medium is hand-brushed oils (same with Don Coe). Personally, I think this is much more likely to produce a unique look than airbrushing, which is by its nature a more "clean" look.

quote:


I would however recommend a decent airbrush if one were to jump into airbrushing ( $100 range)...the contsant running smaller compressors are fine...I have even painted my 1/4 SE5 fuselage with my airbrush, using the largest tip possible, War Bird Colors thinned 50% with H2O worked very well.....took me a while, but very little over spray and wastage of expensive paint.


What I do need is a compressor capable of keeping up with my HVLP air gun. I've got a cheap one with a small tank that just isn't up to the task of painting large surfaces. I don't think I'd like to paint a 1/4 Sopwith Strutter with an airbrush!

< Message edited by abufletcher -- 10/17/2012 1:54 PM >

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 7:32 AM   
abufletcher



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ORIGINAL: pimmnz
Actually, on fabric covered airplanes the covering is not considered as structure. It is not used in any structural strength calculations, nor would any engineer accept it as part of the strength of an airframe. Metal, stressed skin types are another story, of course, as are tiny (up to 24'') models where the tissue/dope covering can act as a 'stressed skin'. Abu, if there is one thing I got from my own WW1 types, it is to build the control surfaces as light as possible, use X bracing under the covering if needed, use ally weld rod outlines wherever possible, bend to the proper shape for those washed out ailerons as required, and use as light a covering as possible, without overtightening. The covering should not be be so tight as to stress the frame, as an example I use Solarfilm's 'Litespan' on the 1/4 scale WW1's ailerons, rudders and elevators. The stuff does not get brittle, does not get 'taught' and is basically stable. No stress is applied to the frame and it accepts most finishing methods. And everything stays as it was built, unless you walk it into a door, or wall, or try cartwheel landings, of course.
Evan, WB #12.


I have all of the following materials: Koverall, Solartex, Polyspan, and Silkspan. And all could be covered in the "caramel-colored" silk that would maintain a consistent color and weave. Frankly, I'm worried that the Koverall is just too "strong" for the twisty ailerons. It isn't that it would crush the frame but rather it might be hard to control the degree of shrinkage and therefore the required twist for washout. Solartex is what I've always used in the past and it doesn't shrink as much as the Koverall, but it's a bit heavier than Koverall. Polyspan is an interesting material. It's like the old paper-based silkspan (with random non-woven fibers) but the polyspan is made of heat-shrinkable fibers. With the silk on top it would retain a suitable "fabric" look.


< Message edited by abufletcher -- 10/17/2012 1:55 PM >

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 1:24 PM   
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Status: offline 		Are you thinking of Duncan Hutson?

Be careful of silk. Doped silk can warp even sturdy airframes.I think it is the thickness of the dope that is the problem rather than silk. In any case, I'd suggest you use wallpaper paste to attach it and put just one coat of dope to seal it. (That may be your plan but I didn't feel like going through 103 pages to see.)

Martin

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 1:41 PM   
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Status: offline 		Get a candy thermometer and tune the the iron. mark 225, 250, 300, 350 deg F. 250 is used when you dont want any shrinking like attaching the edges. 250 will shrink lightly, 350 will max shrink without overheating the fabric. use somewhere in the middle for light structures, 250-300. If you go to 375+ deg F you will cause the baggy covering syndrome when you take your plane to the field in the Sun. It changes the chemistry if you overheat. My MC iron will go to 425+! I have had a bunch of baggy planes, until I learned this. You cant use a heat gun to shrink because you dont know the temp at the surface of the covering. You will shrink it but you also overheat it. A must for Koverall, but works pretty much on all normal "plastic" coverings. If you need a bunch of heat to shrink out wrinkles, you need to apply the covering more carefully.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 1:47 PM   
abufletcher



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ORIGINAL: Nieuport nut
Are you thinking of Duncan Hutson?


The pdf article I posted above was written by Andy Hutson.

quote:


Be careful of silk. Doped silk can warp even sturdy airframes.I think it is the thickness of the dope that is the problem rather than silk. In any case, I'd suggest you use wallpaper paste to attach it and put just one coat of dope to seal it. (That may be your plan but I didn't feel like going through 103 pages to see.)


What you don't want to spend the next month reviewing the entire thread! Anyway, no, my plan and purpose and method for the silk are entirely different. Long story short, I'm using caramel-colored ("bamboo" on the website) silk ON TOP OF the Koverall to simulate the color of a German varnished clear dope finish. I'm doing this INSTEAD of using colored Solartex or painting. The silk over Koverall will provide the desired color and translucency. I sent Matz a sample of the silk and he was kind enough to actually lay in on a full-scale sample and it matched almost perfectly.

The Koverall is attached with SIG Stix-it and will be sealed with MinWax Polycrylic. In tests, I've applied the silk directly to the Koverall with the PolyC. On the wings, I needed to Koverall to get the shrinkage needed for the wire TE. That's not necessary for the ailerons, so other "under-coverings" could also work. The final fuel-proofing will be Nelson's flat clear. No dope involved in the process.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 2:50 PM   
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TFF - tune the the iron. mark 225, 250, 300, 350 deg F. 250 is used when you dont want any shrinking like attaching the edges. 250 will shrink lightly, 350 will max shrink without overheating the fabric. use somewhere in the middle for light structures, 250-300. If you go to 375+ deg F you will cause the baggy covering syndrome


Thanks for the info on temperature settings for covering irons. Probably have this stashed away somewhere in the shop but I'm printing it now to bring it to the top of the pile. It would make good sense to calibrate your iron before use on such delicate, important structures, as we certainly don't want to end up with the sunny day sag on on one of our masterpieces.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 3:04 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		Somewhere I have a little "iron thermometer" that I got at a hobby shop. It's got a little thermostat-like coil that turns a dial. But for the most part, I've gotten a good feel (literally) for how hot the iron is.

On other topic, I just got word from Tom, the German builder of the other CDScaleDesigns CI (and the first to fly) that on a rough landing the G10 aileron level broke and he strongly recommends that I reinforce it now. I also had my suspicions as I was cutting out the new ones. There's the very narrow area by the "notch" for the aileron LE and also the long arm in the wing slot. What I'm thinking at the moment is that I will add an additional layer of thinner G10 to both sides and then file the edges round which will be both stronger and more scale.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 3:11 PM   
abufletcher



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Status: offline 		It's not "sag" that I'm worrying about. Or "crushing" of the structure. It's the possibility (likelihood?) of introducing unequal amounts of twist in the two ailerons. Unlike most ailerons, the ailerons on the CI (and several other German 2-seaters) had built-in twist with the outer tip feathered upward, creating the stabilizing effect of wash-out. It wouldn't do to have more twist in one aileron than the other. Twist in the wings (and the wings on this model are plenty bendy) can be managed with rigging, but the ailerons are on their own.

The built-in twist on the model ailerons is accurate and sufficiently robust to cause the surface to spring back into shape. But it's not so rigid that it would resist the pull of strong shrinkage.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/17/2012 8:50 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nieuport nut

Are you thinking of Duncan Hutson?




Actually they both have the same last name... Andy Hutson and Duncan Hutson...not sure if related or not...both are world class builders, Duncan having won the British Nationals at one point.

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RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build - 10/18/2012 1:34 PM   
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Status: offline 		I've reinforced the aileron levers with 0.8mm G10 on both sides of the lever. I doubt it will break even in a crash. (Thanks for the warning, Tom!) Anyway, the wings are just about ready to cover. Just need to give them one more good looking over to make sure I haven't forgot something. The attachment points for all the struts are done.

This one photo shows all the little refinements I made to the aileron. There's the reinforced lever arm, there's the additional attachment points (fore and aft), there's the strap hinges, and finally the ply supports around the hinges (to give the fabric something to attach to). Underneath the ply there are small bits of balsa.

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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> RC Scale Aircraft >> RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build
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