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Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/27/2009 7:16 AM   
Bill Adair



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Status: online 		A friend gave me a pint of Red Max diesel fuel, and I've been having a ball running two of my early McCoy .049 diesels on this fuel.

They were not running well at first, so I pulled the heads, and found original white rubber o-rings in both. The o-rings were worn completely flat sided, and I recall this took about a half dozen runs back when I was flying my first McCoy diesel.

Replaced both o-rings with new ones from ACE, and the engines both started easily, and ran great.

However, a few days ago I noticed the McCoy was getting very hard to start, but ran about the same RPM once it was running. I suspect that my fuel has lost too much Ether.

Bought a couple cans of John Deere starting fluid yesterday, but have no idea how to tell how much Ether I need to add?

My first thought was to open the fuel bottle, let it gas off over night (outdoors of course), and then add one third Ether. This would be wasteful, but would probably get me close to the correct mix.

I could just add a little Ether at a time until the engine starts easily again, but that seems like even more trouble.

Any advice appreciated.

Bill

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/27/2009 8:08 AM   
Motorboy



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Status: offline 		Replace old fuel with new fuel, not good idea to add more ether in old fuel with unknown percentage of ether in fuel.. It give you more trouble..

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/27/2009 10:58 AM   
greggles47


 

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Status: online 		Bill,

Put a small amount of your fuel into a graduated cylinder and leave it open to the atmo to gas off. Mark your starting level. Over a short period (a day or so - depending on the weather) the ether will evaporate, and the oil and kero will separate. The oil will be on top of the Kero. Instant (well sort of) determination of your fuel mix.

Then simply add enough ether to bring it back to original spec.

Probably easier though to simply mix a new batch.

Regards

Greg

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/27/2009 6:24 PM   
gkamysz



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ORIGINAL: greggles47
The oil will be on top of the Kero.


That's interesting. The specific gravity of castor oil is ~.96 and kerosene ~.83.


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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/27/2009 9:07 PM   
gcb



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Status: offline 		Bill, I'm a bit confused, is the fuel in a bottle or can?

My suggestion would be, since you have the John Deere already, squirt some in the fuel can (I prefer against the side, under the fuel level). Any more ether than you already have should improve it, but I would not go more than 10%.

A pint doesn't seem like much, but on a McCoy .049 it should go a long way.

Also make sure the container seals properly. Some teflon plumbers tape should help.

Good luck with it.

George

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/27/2009 10:17 PM   
Motorboy



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quote:

ORIGINAL: greggles47

Bill,

Over a short period (a day or so - depending on the weather) the ether will evaporate, and the oil and kero will separate.

Regards

Greg



The problem are the ether are hygroscopic and the moisture in air will enter in the fuel... The fuel will be unuseful later after the ether are added in fuel cause the ether will absorb moisture from fuel.

As i wrote in early post, throw old fuel and get a new fresh fuel ready to use.

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/27/2009 10:39 PM   
Bill Adair



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Status: online 		Thanks folks,

Thanks everyone,

Your good advice gives me something to think about.


George,

I didn't have an empty metal can, so I poured the Red Max into an empty Sig Castor oil bottle (pint size). Those plastic safety caps are next to worthless, so I'm trying to order some small metal cans, with metal lids.

The Ether was probably already partially depleted by my friend, who spent a lot of time trying to start his new MK17, with no success at all. He brought the engine to the field, and I got it running in a few minutes, thus the offer of some free fuel. Sweet running engine by the way.

His mistake was not priming through the exhaust port against the side of the piston, so he was fighting a wet prime, with the compression screw backed out too far, to allow easier hand flipping. Fortunately, he didn't use an electric starter.

Also, he was using a squeeze bulb to prime and refuel, so he had his Red Max jug open quite often.

Should be going out to fly my Skyray 35 tomorrow, so I'll set up the McCoy diesel, and try my fuel again.

I tried to pull the spray nozzle off the Ether can, but it's on there pretty tight. I'm afraid Ill pull the whole stem out of the can, if I pull any harder!

Bill



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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/27/2009 10:51 PM   
Bill Adair



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Status: online 		Jens,

I'm going to order more fuel, but will have to get it shipped, as they don't stock diesel fuel locally, or much of anything control line related.

A friend of mine lives outside Oslo. He spent a year working with me on a guided missile program (Penguin anti-ship missile), but that was many years ago.

Bill

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/27/2009 11:50 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		A good source of one qt screw top cans is the hardware store. alcohol, acetone, laquer thinner and such come in them.when you use it up save the the and check the neighbors to see
if they have an almost empty one I havent bought one yet martin

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/28/2009 1:29 AM   
Bill Adair



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Status: online 		Believe me, I've looked at a lot of hardware and paint stores for metal cans, with metal lids.

It seems that the government in it's infinite wisdom, has mandated plastic safety caps for all chemical containers!

Found a web site claiming to have tin cans with metal lids, so I ordered some. That was weeks ago, and I've yet to hear from them again. I'm thinking they checked closer, and found all they had was plastic caps!

Bill

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/28/2009 3:29 PM   
raglafart


 

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Status: online 		Okay, for fuel storage try using soda bottle, yep the pet plastic ones! a Pepsi or Coke or whatever bottle of whatever size you like.
I was skeptical initially, but stored my ether in 2.5 liter Diet Pepsi bottles for about 2 or 3 years, no loss at all. Must admit all my ether is now in 2.5 Winchesters now, but that was only because I was given some of these brown glass Winchesters. I'd say that the smaller 370 ml and 600 ml bottles will be just as good for a week or two if the fuel is just for spot use, I'd say it would be good for a lot longer from my own experiences. Wash the bottles out well and I leave them out in the sun to dry off, you can if you want then put them in the freezer over night with the lid off to fully dry the inside of the bottles.
If you are team racing, or looking for maximum performance then it is critical to mix fresh fuel on the day. But I can't see you doing that with a McCoy diesel! racing that is.
I'm of the opinion from many flights with my Mills .75 powered scramble model that you can indeed freshen up a bit of old fuel with an intelligent guess at adding a wee bit of ether to freshen up the brew.
I hasten to add that when running a scramble model you aren't looking for the ultimate performance just a reliable run and good restarts. Never had a problem at all using old fuel that had even been left in the fueling squeeze bottle for a week or more plus.
If the engine has a decent piston sleeve fit the engine will fire if the comp is adjusted properly.
I can hear the outrage from here!
I'm off before I get shot

Just add a small amount of ether to you fuel and try it, it's only a McCoy. , it's not as if it's a Schlosser is it!

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/28/2009 6:33 PM   
Bill Adair



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Status: online 		John,

Thanks for the Ether storage, and fuel freshening tips.

Wish we could buy Ether retail here in the US, but our only source appears to be diesel starting fluid spray cans. There are commercial sources of diesel fuel in quarts and gallons, but we can't get it locally.

I've always favored tin cans for field use, because I can drill the caps for any brass tube arrangement that I like.

Bill

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/28/2009 9:44 PM   
SGC


 

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Status: offline 		I got tired of trying to find a screw top tin that didnt leak for my diesel fuel, so I made my own.
Take 1 x 200gram coffee tin , 1x 3/4" bsp brass bush , 1x 3/4" bsp brass plug, solder the bush onto the centre of the lid, then solder the lid on the can, a little thread tape on the plug and no leaks. These will last till the a$$ rots out
Stewart

< Message edited by SGC -- 6/28/2009 9:45 PM >

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/29/2009 4:16 AM   
greggles47


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Adair

John,

Thanks for the Ether storage, and fuel freshening tips.

Wish we could buy Ether retail here in the US, but our only source appears to be diesel starting fluid spray cans. There are commercial sources of diesel fuel in quarts and gallons, but we can't get it locally.

I've always favored tin cans for field use, because I can drill the caps for any brass tube arrangement that I like.

Bill

Bill,

It sounds as if you need to make friends with your local illegal drug manufacturer! They don't seem to have any trouble getting as much Ether as they need. (Joke)

But you might need to find someone who has a company where chemical suppliers are prepared to deliver solvent ether.

Or make friends with the local F2C Team race fliers - they are bound to have a regular supply.

Regards

Greg


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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/29/2009 5:41 AM   
Bill Adair



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Status: online 		Greg,

That's funny!

Matter of fact, I was doing a Google search for Ether, and pulled up a court case where a drug making group was being prosecuted.

Seems they sent a young lady to buy Ether, so she bought thirty-six cans of the same starter fluid I bought.

I'm expecting a knock on the door anytime now!

Bill

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/29/2009 7:09 AM   
locktite401


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bill Adair

Greg,

That's funny!

Matter of fact, I was doing a Google search for Ether, and pulled up a court case where a drug making group was being prosecuted.

Seems they sent a young lady to buy Ether, so she bought thirty-six cans of the same starter fluid I bought.

I'm expecting a knock on the door anytime now!

Bill



Bill,

it's unlikely you're in the demographic.

Ray


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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/29/2009 7:34 AM   
Bill Adair



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Status: online 		Ray,

They don't profile the usual suspects here, because it might be considered prejudicial.

The less likely you are to be a suspect, the more likely you are to be checked.

Bill

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/29/2009 2:22 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		I just bought some denatured alcohol and acetone in quarts ( metal cans) at my local ace hardware store in quarts it has metal screw tops with a PLASTIC slip ring which must me squeezed to open
the can ( a childproof safety requirement) and it is new stock since they had run out of it and a fresh shipment martin
With ICC shipping regs I am surprised it is packaged in non metal containers
When you buy rubbing alcohol in the drug store it is in a plastic bottle


< Message edited by AMB -- 6/29/2009 2:35 PM >

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/29/2009 7:29 PM   
mylamo


 

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Status: offline 		There is pretty good incentive for reviving / saving old fuel
if cost is any object. Thirty bucks per gallon plus six for
shipping plus eighteen for haz-mat fee puts us at fifty
dollars per gallon. This alone makes diesel a tough sell.
Ralph








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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/30/2009 7:57 PM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		ZNot too long ago I got a gallon of Davis diesel fuel from tower I was only charged $7 shipping no Hazmat fee martin

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/30/2009 9:46 PM   
lildiesel



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quote:


Just add a small amount of ether to you fuel and try it, it's only a McCoy. , it's not as if it's a Schlosser is it!


If the McCoy is having starting problems on anything but the freshest fuels it might not be just ether loss. I had lots of trouble with my OK Cub D (similar O-ring contrapiston design) getting starts and good runs until I read a discussion on some English site that pointed out that the .049 need 3% amyl nitrate in the fuel instead of the usual 1.5%. Things improved greatly with more amyl nitrate in my small batch mixes.

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 6/30/2009 11:57 PM   
Bill Adair



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quote:

ORIGINAL: lildiesel


quote:


If the McCoy is having starting problems on anything but the freshest fuels it might not be just ether loss. I had lots of trouble with my OK Cub D (similar O-ring contrapiston design) getting starts and good runs until I read a discussion on some English site that pointed out that the .049 need 3% amyl nitrate in the fuel instead of the usual 1.5%. Things improved greatly with more amyl nitrate in my small batch mixes.


Interesting,

I'll have to see where I can buy a small quantity of amyl nitrate. The only source I've seen recently was for a quart size. A bit much for my use.

Bill

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 7/1/2009 1:14 AM   
locktite401


 

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When you say Amyl Nitrate do you mean Hexyl Nitrate aka DII? I believe that one US based diesel guru sells the latter as the former.

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 7/1/2009 2:56 AM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		Locktite as before posted Amsoil cetane booster is Octyl Nitrate and works great for our ignition improver martin''

JohnVB down under said2% works

MSDS safety sheet states 100% Octyl Nitrate

< Message edited by AMB -- 7/1/2009 3:03 AM >

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RE: Replacing lost Ether in fuel? - 7/1/2009 4:39 AM   
locktite401


 

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ORIGINAL: AMB

Locktite as before posted Amsoil cetane booster is Octyl Nitrate and works great for our ignition improver martin''

JohnVB down under said2% works

MSDS safety sheet states 100% Octyl Nitrate



Martin,

Octyl nitrate ( isooctyl nitrate ) is hexyl nitrate ( 2-ethylhexylnitrate ) (the same thing)


Ray

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