Moisture in Methanol  
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All Forums >> Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums >> RC Fuels >> Moisture in Methanol
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Moisture in Methanol - 3/28/2002 4:37:23 AM   
JoanC


 

Posts: 62
Joined: 3/28/2002
From: Teia, SPAIN
Status: offline 		What happens when methanol gets moisture? How do you notice your fuel has moisture when you are running your engine? What amount of water must the fuel have for being unusable?
       Post #: 1

Moisture in Methanol - 3/28/2002 6:53:03 AM   
Vince


 

Posts: 1650
Joined: 2/2/2002
From: Nederland, Tx.
Status: offline 		The fuel will become cloudy. Be advised that fuel stored for any great length in a plastic bottle can absorb moisture right through the plastic from the outside air.

Vince

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 2

What kind of problems are you having - 3/28/2002 2:28:29 PM   
bob_nj


 

Posts: 3479
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Vineland, NJ, USA
Status: offline 		And how are your engines running?

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 3

Moisture in Methanol - 3/28/2002 8:47:38 PM   
JoanC


 

Posts: 62
Joined: 3/28/2002
From: Teia, SPAIN
Status: offline 		No problems. I just wanted to know the effects of moisture in how the motors work.

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 4

Moisture in Methanol - 3/28/2002 9:18:37 PM   
ramcharger


 

Posts: 571
Joined: 1/25/2002
From: St Louis, MO, USA
Status: offline 		If water is your fuel, the engine will run lean and get hot. I suppose water in the fuel would be last on the list of trouble shooting items you would look into when a lean run is encountered. Depending on the amount of water in the fuel, the problem may be eliminated by re-tuning.

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 5

Moisture in Methanol - 3/29/2002 12:02:47 AM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7600
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Fuel does not get cloudy with water, unless there is so much water the oil will not mix, thats a LOT of water. If you adjust the needle each time you fly you will not get a lean run from water. Since adding water displaces fuel it will run leaner on the same needle setting but opening up the needle solves. I don't know how much fuel our engines can tolerate but I suspect it is over 10%. I know that our engines can run with over 30% oil and extra oil has a similar effect as water. In fact oil is worse than water because it wets the glow plug where water remains as superheated steam. If you have too much water in your fuel don't throw it out, try a hotter plug first. You can also somtime salvage it by mixing it with higher nitro fuel, though by the time I suspect I have wet fuel its almsot gone and not worth mixing. In fact swithching to an Enya #3 plug will ususally solve wet fuel problems.

PS Also don't throw your fuel out if it turns colors. As far as I know all of the synthetic oils are clear. However all color's of dye are added to the oil or fuel. Since its just for coloring the fuel manufactures don't go for indelible colors and sunlight will cause most of them to turn colors, turn dark, or even disappear!

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 6

Moisture in Methanol - 4/8/2002 5:57:37 PM   
BIGRCR


 

Posts: 105
Joined: 12/16/2001
From: SC
Status: offline 		Our engines cannot tolerate water in the fuel at all. I would imagine that this figure is MUCH less than 10%. Fuel manufacturers usually use methanol that contains less than 500 ppm moisture (.05%). You cannot tell how much or if any water in in your fuel by a visual check, water and methanol form nearly an aziotope (become inseperable). The only detection methods are to use very expensive lab equipment.

The problem does not have to do with being lean and opening the needle valve. The engine will not run with the water at all. When running moisture contaminated fuel, the engine will usually start up and then abruptly die. I have experienced some bad fuel that would run untill your got into the air and then would shut down. You will also most likely experience a rash of plug failures while dealing with this bad fuel.

Later,

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 7

Moisture in Methanol - 4/8/2002 8:17:30 PM   
downunder-RCU



Posts: 1125
Joined: 12/27/2001
From: Adelaide, South Australia
Status: offline 		Well I have to agree with Sport_Pilot here...I don't think water is quite the problem we're all led to believe. In fact I've heard of one guy who even deliberately adds water to his tank because it delays detonation (much the same as acetone does). Water can't harm a plug...the only thing that will destroy a plug is aluminium.
However right now this is just opinion, sometime soon I'll add some water to my tank and go fly to see what happens. I'll also take rpm and head temp readings before and after. Anyone else care to experiment?

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 8

Moisture in Methanol - 4/10/2002 5:50:55 AM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7600
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Don't know why adding water would ruin a plug. After all when our fuel is burned one of the biggest byproducts is water in the form of superheated steam. Superheated steam is as clear as air, but in cold weather it will condense shortly after leaving the exhaust pipe. Which is why we can see a white trail in the winter but it is nonexistant or faint in the summer.

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 9

Moisture in Methanol - 4/10/2002 4:47:19 PM   
BIGRCR


 

Posts: 105
Joined: 12/16/2001
From: SC
Status: offline 		Water is non compressable, coagulates the oil in the fuel and is non combustable. Water will raise the compression in the cylinder and combined with "globs" of oil (because of the water) will "knock" the element out of the plug as well as foul the catalytic action.
Our glow engines are just that, they do not have an ignition spark to keep up combustion.

But go ahead, add water to your fuel and learn the hard way! It's your hobby and your money!

Oh yeh, a lot of things can destroy a plug (other than aluminum). A lean run or two has been known to cause a certain amount of harm to a plug!

Later,

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 10

Moisture in Methanol - 4/10/2002 6:06:49 PM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7600
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by BIGRCR
Water is non compressable, coagulates the oil in the fuel and is non combustable. Water will raise the compression in the cylinder and combined with "globs" of oil (because of the water) will "knock" the element out of the plug as well as foul the catalytic action.
[/QUOTE]

This argument has often been repeated before, I am curious where you got this information?

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 11

Moisture in Methanol - 4/10/2002 11:55:54 PM   
JoanC


 

Posts: 62
Joined: 3/28/2002
From: Teia, SPAIN
Status: offline 		I was talking about moisture, not big amounts of water. I suppose that the moisture that the methanol attracts gets totally disolved with the methanol so there are no "globs" of oil. It is this amount of water that I was asking about and I am concerned of and if it really affects to the engine performance or it is a thing that I must not worry about.

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 12

Moisture in Methanol - 4/11/2002 2:53:02 AM   
BIGRCR


 

Posts: 105
Joined: 12/16/2001
From: SC
Status: offline 		Originally posted by BIGRCR
Water is non compressable, coagulates the oil in the fuel and is non combustable. Water will raise the compression in the cylinder and combined with "globs" of oil (because of the water) will "knock" the element out of the plug as well as foul the catalytic action.

"This argument has often been repeated before, I am curious where you got this information?"

I have obtained this information from several years of experience in R/C flying. I have gotten some water contaminated fuel before and it will not run correctly. It will cause you many episodes of dead stick landings at best.
There are reasons that the fuel manufacturers go through a lot of trouble to use and to ensure that the methanol that they use is moisture free. It is not so that someone who knows better than them can add the water back to control timing or for whatever other wonderful reason!
I have also been mixing fuels for nearly 15 years now and have tested these fuels for moisture using a Mitsubishi Moisture Analyzer, by titration.

I have a limited 21 year chemical back ground as a Lab Technician and an Engineered Resins Technician for a major motor fuels and Chemical Industry company, BP Amoco.

BUT I could be wrong!

Later,

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 13

Moisture in Methanol - 4/11/2002 4:52:48 AM   
Ladyflyer



Posts: 1035
Joined: 1/13/2002
From: North Am, PA, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for the expert advice Big ! Very well stated.

_____________________________

LF
When they have to say "NO FEAR" it really means NO SENSE.

(in reply to JoanC)
       Post #: 14

Moisture in Methanol - 4/11/2002 7:56:45 AM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7600
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		Well I don't think any of us want water in our fuel. After we want to burn our fuel and water doesn't burn nor lubricate our engines, so of course the manufactures want their fuel as pure as possible. Obviously our engines will not run on water! The lady wanted to know how much water is a problem. You stated that any water is intolerable. So I guess I should throw out my fuel after the first use? Because you will have water in the fuel the first time you use it. Even if you were to manage to get your pump attached to the fuel can without opening it you will encounter the greatest source of water when you defuel your plane. Since much of our fuel is converted to water when we burn it the muffler pressure has a lot of steam in it. This of course gets into the fuel in our tanks, and is then transfered back to our fuel can when we defuel the plane. So since most of us defuel our plane several times on each gallon of fuel and ususally without having problems. So this is proof that our engines can tolerate at least some water in our fuel, the question asked was how much.

You state that water is incompressable, t