Moisture in Methanol (Full Version)

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JoanC -> Moisture in Methanol (3/28/2002 4:37:23 AM)

What happens when methanol gets moisture? How do you notice your fuel has moisture when you are running your engine? What amount of water must the fuel have for being unusable?




Vince -> Moisture in Methanol (3/28/2002 6:53:03 AM)

The fuel will become cloudy. Be advised that fuel stored for any great length in a plastic bottle can absorb moisture right through the plastic from the outside air.

Vince




bob_nj -> What kind of problems are you having (3/28/2002 2:28:29 PM)

And how are your engines running?




JoanC -> Moisture in Methanol (3/28/2002 8:47:38 PM)

No problems. I just wanted to know the effects of moisture in how the motors work.




ramcharger -> Moisture in Methanol (3/28/2002 9:18:37 PM)

If water is your fuel, the engine will run lean and get hot. I suppose water in the fuel would be last on the list of trouble shooting items you would look into when a lean run is encountered. Depending on the amount of water in the fuel, the problem may be eliminated by re-tuning.




Sport_Pilot -> Moisture in Methanol (3/29/2002 12:02:47 AM)

Fuel does not get cloudy with water, unless there is so much water the oil will not mix, thats a LOT of water. If you adjust the needle each time you fly you will not get a lean run from water. Since adding water displaces fuel it will run leaner on the same needle setting but opening up the needle solves. I don't know how much fuel our engines can tolerate but I suspect it is over 10%. I know that our engines can run with over 30% oil and extra oil has a similar effect as water. In fact oil is worse than water because it wets the glow plug where water remains as superheated steam. If you have too much water in your fuel don't throw it out, try a hotter plug first. You can also somtime salvage it by mixing it with higher nitro fuel, though by the time I suspect I have wet fuel its almsot gone and not worth mixing. In fact swithching to an Enya #3 plug will ususally solve wet fuel problems.

PS Also don't throw your fuel out if it turns colors. As far as I know all of the synthetic oils are clear. However all color's of dye are added to the oil or fuel. Since its just for coloring the fuel manufactures don't go for indelible colors and sunlight will cause most of them to turn colors, turn dark, or even disappear!




BIGRCR -> Moisture in Methanol (4/8/2002 5:57:37 PM)

Our engines cannot tolerate water in the fuel at all. I would imagine that this figure is MUCH less than 10%. Fuel manufacturers usually use methanol that contains less than 500 ppm moisture (.05%). You cannot tell how much or if any water in in your fuel by a visual check, water and methanol form nearly an aziotope (become inseperable). The only detection methods are to use very expensive lab equipment.

The problem does not have to do with being lean and opening the needle valve. The engine will not run with the water at all. When running moisture contaminated fuel, the engine will usually start up and then abruptly die. I have experienced some bad fuel that would run untill your got into the air and then would shut down. You will also most likely experience a rash of plug failures while dealing with this bad fuel.

Later,




downunder-RCU -> Moisture in Methanol (4/8/2002 8:17:30 PM)

Well I have to agree with Sport_Pilot here...I don't think water is quite the problem we're all led to believe. In fact I've heard of one guy who even deliberately adds water to his tank because it delays detonation (much the same as acetone does). Water can't harm a plug...the only thing that will destroy a plug is aluminium.
However right now this is just opinion, sometime soon I'll add some water to my tank and go fly to see what happens. I'll also take rpm and head temp readings before and after. Anyone else care to experiment?




Sport_Pilot -> Moisture in Methanol (4/10/2002 5:50:55 AM)

Don't know why adding water would ruin a plug. After all when our fuel is burned one of the biggest byproducts is water in the form of superheated steam. Superheated steam is as clear as air, but in cold weather it will condense shortly after leaving the exhaust pipe. Which is why we can see a white trail in the winter but it is nonexistant or faint in the summer.




BIGRCR -> Moisture in Methanol (4/10/2002 4:47:19 PM)

Water is non compressable, coagulates the oil in the fuel and is non combustable. Water will raise the compression in the cylinder and combined with "globs" of oil (because of the water) will "knock" the element out of the plug as well as foul the catalytic action.
Our glow engines are just that, they do not have an ignition spark to keep up combustion.

But go ahead, add water to your fuel and learn the hard way! It's your hobby and your money! :stupid:

Oh yeh, a lot of things can destroy a plug (other than aluminum). A lean run or two has been known to cause a certain amount of harm to a plug! :D

Later,




Sport_Pilot -> Moisture in Methanol (4/10/2002 6:06:49 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BIGRCR
Water is non compressable, coagulates the oil in the fuel and is non combustable. Water will raise the compression in the cylinder and combined with "globs" of oil (because of the water) will "knock" the element out of the plug as well as foul the catalytic action.
[/QUOTE]

This argument has often been repeated before, I am curious where you got this information?




JoanC -> Moisture in Methanol (4/10/2002 11:55:54 PM)

I was talking about moisture, not big amounts of water. I suppose that the moisture that the methanol attracts gets totally disolved with the methanol so there are no "globs" of oil. It is this amount of water that I was asking about and I am concerned of and if it really affects to the engine performance or it is a thing that I must not worry about.




BIGRCR -> Moisture in Methanol (4/11/2002 2:53:02 AM)

Originally posted by BIGRCR
Water is non compressable, coagulates the oil in the fuel and is non combustable. Water will raise the compression in the cylinder and combined with "globs" of oil (because of the water) will "knock" the element out of the plug as well as foul the catalytic action.

"This argument has often been repeated before, I am curious where you got this information?"

I have obtained this information from several years of experience in R/C flying. I have gotten some water contaminated fuel before and it will not run correctly. It will cause you many episodes of dead stick landings at best.
There are reasons that the fuel manufacturers go through a lot of trouble to use and to ensure that the methanol that they use is moisture free. It is not so that someone who knows better than them can add the water back to control timing or for whatever other wonderful reason!
I have also been mixing fuels for nearly 15 years now and have tested these fuels for moisture using a Mitsubishi Moisture Analyzer, by titration.

I have a limited 21 year chemical back ground as a Lab Technician and an Engineered Resins Technician for a major motor fuels and Chemical Industry company, BP Amoco.

BUT I could be wrong!

Later,




Ladyflyer -> Moisture in Methanol (4/11/2002 4:52:48 AM)

Thanks for the expert advice Big ! Very well stated.




Sport_Pilot -> Moisture in Methanol (4/11/2002 7:56:45 AM)

Well I don't think any of us want water in our fuel. After we want to burn our fuel and water doesn't burn nor lubricate our engines, so of course the manufactures want their fuel as pure as possible. Obviously our engines will not run on water! The lady wanted to know how much water is a problem. You stated that any water is intolerable. So I guess I should throw out my fuel after the first use? Because you will have water in the fuel the first time you use it. Even if you were to manage to get your pump attached to the fuel can without opening it you will encounter the greatest source of water when you defuel your plane. Since much of our fuel is converted to water when we burn it the muffler pressure has a lot of steam in it. This of course gets into the fuel in our tanks, and is then transfered back to our fuel can when we defuel the plane. So since most of us defuel our plane several times on each gallon of fuel and ususally without having problems. So this is proof that our engines can tolerate at least some water in our fuel, the question asked was how much.

You state that water is incompressable, this is true but our fuel is incompressable also, that is why we get hydralic lock when the cylinder is full of fuel, because it is incompressable. In fact it is one of the descriptions defining liquids and gasses, liquids are incompressable and gasses are compressabel. Now water has as a gaseous form also, it is called, well you know, steam. You also state that water will raise the compression in the engine. The law of partial pressure say's this isn't so. Steam is very compressable and only somewhat denser than our fuel.

To put it anouther way. You take a cylinder of fuel, air, and water vapor at 14.7 psi absolute, this is our average air pressure. Now take away the water and put it into a cylinder of perfect vacume. Now maybe it has a pressure of maybe .5 PSIA that means the pressure of the remaining fuel is 14.2 PSIA. Now you compress each gas to a compression ration of 10 to 1. Now the water vapor is 5 PSIA and the fuel and air is 142 PSI Put the water vapor back into the engine cylinder and the pressure is 147. Thats 10 times 14.7 so it is still a compression ratio of 10 to 1. So water doesn't change the compression ratio. This is the law of partial pressures.

Downunder has it right! In fact the early turbocharged GTO had a water injector to prevent detonation from the boost of the turbocharger. It was I think the first production car with a turbocharger. Actually the injector used a mixture of water and alcohol, but in a pinch pure water would work. Also I recall LF posted a site on racing fuel a while back and water was one of the additives mentioned to reduce detonation, along with acetone, and more exotic additives. Not all of these were for detonation I think.




downunder-RCU -> Moisture in Methanol (4/11/2002 3:06:47 PM)

Well as stated earlier, it's my hobby and my money so I went out today and learned the hard way :D

Tank is 250cc and fuel is straight methanol/20% castor.
First attempt was to inject 5cc of water which gave almost exactly 2% water mix. No discernible difference in starting/running characteristics.

Second attempt add 7.5cc of water for a 3% mix. Hmmmmm, no discernible difference.

Third attempt add 10cc of water for a 4% mix. Oh oh...very hard to start, runs awful, won't accelerate...absolutely impossible to use.

Fourth attempt, drain half the tank into a plastic squeeze bottle and fill with fresh fuel for same 2% mix as earlier. Works perfect again.

Glow plug still perfect :)

Now for the interesting part. The 4% water mix that I drained into the squeeze bottle initially looked a horrible murky colour. But after sitting for maybe 10 minutes there was all the castor sitting at the bottom of the bottle! I added a little fresh fuel to bring it back to around 3% water and the oil remixed again.

So all I can say from these results is that water makes no difference until it's at a concentration that makes the oil come out of solution. What affect it might have on synthetic oils I have no idea...I'll leave that to someone who uses that stuff to find out :D

BTW...this wasn't just ground running, I flew the plane and didn't touch the needle settings.




mumblety-peg -> Moisture in Methanol (4/11/2002 4:18:26 PM)

Downunder-
Thanks... that was great.
mum




JoanC -> Moisture in Methanol (4/11/2002 5:28:33 PM)

Sport_Pilot. I think you are right except for the small detail that I am not a lady. Your observation that when we are defuelling we are introducing water in the fuel can is the amount of water that I was talking about.

Downunder. Thank you for your tests. From now on I will not be concerned about moisture in my fuel. I don't think that with normal use I will get more than the 2% of water you added without having problems.

Thanks eevrybody for your replies.




majortom-RCU -> Moisture in Methanol (4/11/2002 6:15:47 PM)

Downunder, in a forum that is so full of over-generalizations, bald assertions, untested pet theories and grapevine hearsay, your approach borders on the revolutionary! And I am not throwing stones at my fellow members, because I am as guilty as the rest.

JoanC, I wondered when I saw your name on the table whether you were a Joan of Arc or a Joan Miro. A classy name either way. Thanks for stirring up a great thread. We all learned something.

Now, who cares enough to go out and repeat the experiment with synthetic lube and nitro? (Not me, I have to go fun-fly.)




Ladyflyer -> Moisture in Methanol (4/12/2002 4:25:22 AM)

Me too. Clean'pure fuel suits me best.
Nothing succeeds like successs :D




downunder-RCU -> Cloudy Fuel (4/24/2002 9:13:12 PM)

Just to add a bit more to those tests I did earlier. I'd brought home that squeeze bottle of fuel with the 3% water that was fine to fly with at the field but later in the evening I saw some oil had separated out again. I figured maybe it was because it was now cooler so I warmed up the bottle and the oil all dissolved. This made me think the tolerable amount of water was temperature dependent so I decided to do some more tests. The only real difference was that the fuel I was going to test was 18.5% Mobil Jet Oil 2 instead of the 20% all castor mix I'd been flying with. My criteria was going to be the point where the fuel mixture no longer showed any signs of going cloudy when shaken.

So this is what I found…
.25% -10C (14F)
.5% -5C (23F)
.75% 0C (32F)
1.0% 5C (41F)
1.25% 11C (52F)
1.5% 16C (61F)
1.75% 22C (72F)
2% 29C (84F)
2.25% 34C (93F)
2.5% 39C (102F)

These temperatures seemed to be quite specific in that even a 1C rise or fall was enough to make a noticeable change from cloudy to clear. Considering that I didn't exactly have a laboratory to do these tests in (unless my fridge freezer counts) there seems to be almost a straight line correlation between water content and the temperature that the fuel goes bad. It would be interesting to know what affect, if any, nitro has on a similar fuel but I've never used nitro.




mumblety-peg -> Fridge freezer! (4/25/2002 4:09:15 AM)

I can just see the look on my wife's face when I try to explain the new rather oily mixture in the freezer!! LOL




Homebrewer -> Water Fuel for Airplanes (4/25/2002 4:59:28 AM)

Hey, check this out! Looks like water may be the aircraft fuel of the future anyway! I can see it now, Brand X water, the purist most consistent running water........

Jet of future powered by water?
Scientists record success in propelling trial craft with laser

By JULIAN RYALL
Staff writer

The last days of noisy, gas-guzzling airplanes polluting the skies could be on the horizon as Japanese scientists have successfully -- if briefly -- flown an aircraft powered by water.

A water-powered aircraft model is captured on a multiple-exposure image at Tokyo Institute of Technology.

The revolutionary vehicle has no traditional power plant and, if the technology gets off the ground and is harnessed commercially, could mean a generation of aircraft that are both lighter and quieter than their present-day counterparts, less prone to malfunctions because of their simplicity, cheaper to operate and therefore cheaper for travelers too.

As an added bonus, a water-powered aircraft would not leave airlines at the mercy of the international oil market, while the propulsion system could be adapted to work similarly well in outer space, according to professor Takashi Yabe, 52, of the Tokyo Institute of Technology.

"It was initially conceived to propel a rocket into orbit, but there is no water in outer space, so the vehicle would either have to carry its own supply of water or collect it from another source, perhaps an orbiting space station," he said.

For the present, Yabe and his team are concentrating on getting a small aircraft aloft, with laboratory experiments on replica planes proving successful so far.

The technique involves fitting the tail of the miniature aircraft with a small, curved aluminum plate that holds a few drops of water. A beam from a 0.2-joule yttrium aluminum garnet (YAG) laser is shot through the water and onto the aluminum dish, evaporating the metal, Yabe said. It is the evaporation of the aluminum that vaporizes the water, which is then funneled out of the rear of the vehicle, propelling it forward.

The force of the vaporized water is sufficient to push the paper plane used in the tests, weighing just a couple of grams, forward for about two seconds, at which point its aluminum plate must again be "shot" by the laser to force more water through the rear-facing nozzles. Surface tension quickly "seals" the hole left by the expelled water, while the amount of aluminum that actually evaporates is very small, meaning the bulk of the metal can be used many times over.

Yabe uses an infrared laser because it is a relatively cheap form of high-powered laser and it has the ability to pass through water -- and as clouds are made up mostly of water, it will be able to cut straight through them, he said.

"The real merit of this airplane is that it does not even have to carry the laser, which would be very heavy and bulky to produce the required energy, so its engines are not even attached to it," Yabe noted.

His team envisages a network of laser stations on the surface of the Earth that, in tandem with a network of orbiting satellites, continuously track the progress of the aircraft and shoot aluminum plates on the surface of the wings, encased in a sheen of water, every few seconds, providing a new jolt of power.

The aircraft will not even need to carry its own supply of water, Yabe said, as liquid in the form of condensation is readily available in flight.

He also dismissed concerns over the laser beam striking other airborne objects -- vaporizing anything from birds to other aircraft -- saying that it is possible to pulse a laser onto the surface of the human skin without damaging the skin; his gadget would use similar pulses that would touch, for example, a bird for a fraction of a second and leave no mark.

A greater concern, and one problem that he is trying to iron out, is finding a better way to store the laser's energy aboard the aircraft to enable it to continue in flight should it miss a couple of "shots."

There have been previous attempts to use lasers to propel rockets, Yabe said, but these focused on heating gas in the rocket, which produced very little propulsive power. Water, however, has a very high density and gives a strong force -- 10,000 times that of a gas -- when it acts as a propellant.

Yabe calculates that by using a 70-joule laser -- 100 times more powerful than his present apparatus -- he will be able to get an aircraft weighing 1 kg airborne. Lasers are developing rapidly, he said, and already a 1-megajoule laser is being built at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in California.

A laser of that size "would be able to get an aircraft weighing many tons into the air," Yabe said.

He is also not put off by the potential cost: "At present, setting up a system like this would be very expensive," he conceded. "For example, the Livermore laser will cost $1 billion, but the technology is developing very fast and it will reach a manageable cost in a relatively short time. Look at my 0.2-joule laboratory laser: That would have cost millions of yen a decade ago, but now it's next to nothing."

Yabe and his eight-strong team are to present a paper on their work in the near future, with the initial objective of driving a small aircraft capable of monitoring climate changes and volcanic eruptions, although the sky could be the limit for the new vehicle, he said.

"It would be easier to fly a smaller airplane or an airship with this method," he said, "But I see no reason why it can't be applied to a much larger aircraft in the future."

As yet, he has not approached any of the powerhouses in the aircraft industry. "It's far too early. I doubt anyone would be interested at this stage, and we really need to do a lot more work on the project. But I'm confident they will be interested when we are at a more advanced stage in our studies," he said.

And he is not particularly worried about passengers of the future being put off boarding an aircraft that has no engines and is powered from the ground.

"Why should they be?" he asked. "If the technology can be proven to be safe and efficient, I see no reason why anyone would be put off from flying in this aircraft. At least I hope that is the case. After all, 50 years ago, the first passengers aboard the first jet airliners still got aboard despite the fact that the engines had no propellers."

The Japan Times: April 24, 2002




majortom-RCU -> Moisture in Methanol (4/25/2002 5:20:46 AM)

downunder, you are the Richard Feynman of the RC world.




downunder-RCU -> Moisture in Methanol (4/25/2002 7:14:49 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by majortom
downunder, you are the Richard Feynman of the RC world. [/QUOTE]
And I only used one quantum of fuel too :D




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