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THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 6:47 AM   
arcticflyer


 

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Status: offline 		I knew this was eventually going to happen.... .....I am getting this second hand from a friend that went to the meet so....If I'm wrong I am sorry....but if I am not...then it has started! At a recent Warbirds over Delaware a guy brought a turbine powered jet.....well our friends from the AMA were at the event and according to my friend the jet was restricted by the AMA to under.....200mph. I am going to try and confirm this by contacted some guys that might be in the know. Brothers of Speed I'm here to tell ya that....regulation is comin and it won't be pretty.

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 7:08 AM   
combatpigg



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Status: offline 		The question is....do you think there should not be any limits under any circumstances? I personally do not feel comfortable flying real fast unless there's no more than a couple helpers or spectators who I know have protection and who I know will pay attention to the plane the entire flight. You're talking about being able to cover a football field in a second, a lot can happen in just 2 seconds. Even just doing 100 is spooky at some venues.
I have no idea what Wings over Delaware looked like, but if it was like a 3 ring circus with all kinds of people milling around everywhere, I'd say that 200 should have been enough to put on a good show.

Ego should never get in the way of good judgement. My worse fear has always been harming an innocent bystander.


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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 7:57 AM   
Stick40



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Status: offline 		Combatpig has a very good point there. Why do you think there is so much regulation at real airshows? Its from the dangers presented from the aircraft. When it comes to big time rc airshows like warbirds over delaware or the such, with so many people there, the planes that are there, despite there small size compared to the full scale counterparts, can still cause lots of damage or lots of injury if one was to go down in the crowd. I think its wise that if your going to be milling around at 200+ that it should be reserved for local clubs or such where everyone there is aware of how much damage the aircraft could do. Im not at all bashing fast flying, i love to go fast, it just should be done with good judgement and at the proper locations.

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 9:38 AM   
freakingfast


 

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Status: offline 		I've put on two demos in front of a large groups. And the only restriction the event organizers gave me was to keep it out past the runway, a very reasonable request. I did so and than some. The extreme maneuvers were carried out much further away,(my own comfort zone for this many spectators). My speeds in a vertical dive were close to 200 and the level passes were under 175.
One M.C seemed relieved when it was over, he obviously had no clue how fast and violent this was going to be. But the crowd loved it.

I turned down a demo request because I could tell I was just "off my game" that day. " A man's got to know his limitations." (C. Eastwood)

If the conditions, plane, radio or me weren't 100% it's a no go. I had planed on if I even saw the slightest strange twitch in the flight that it would mean an instant engine shutdown, turn away, get low and land or ditch out there.

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 10:28 AM   
MJD



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stick40

Combatpig has a very good point there. Why do you think there is so much regulation at real airshows? Its from the dangers presented from the aircraft. When it comes to big time rc airshows like warbirds over delaware or the such, with so many people there, the planes that are there, despite there small size compared to the full scale counterparts, can still cause lots of damage or lots of injury if one was to go down in the crowd. I think its wise that if your going to be milling around at 200+ that it should be reserved for local clubs or such where everyone there is aware of how much damage the aircraft could do. Im not at all bashing fast flying, i love to go fast, it just should be done with good judgement and at the proper locations.

Stick 40


Very recently in our area, a RC demo at an air show went wrong - a turbine powered model went out of control and was stopped by impacting a Harvard, rather than careening into the crowd. It made news, the incident did not get blown out of proportion by anyone that I could tell thank goodness and the good will of the aircraft owner, but it was a darn close call.

The higher the numbers the greater the possibility of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. With 200mph speeds so readily available by virtue of the just-add-money situation that exists today, I can't argue against the thought that limitations should be imposed at high-exposure events, and the high speed stuff be reserved for more controlled environments. Is the exposure so important that it justifies the increased risks inherent in RC aviation at progressively higher airspeeds?

If on the other hand it is a blanket limitation, then that sucks ass and it should darn well be applicable only in situations of increased public liability.

"IMHO" of course

MJD

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 3:13 PM   
Wiggy


 

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Status: offline 		It has been my understanding that the AMA required jets to limit their speed to 200mph for many years. This is nothing new. I think Bob Violet told me this after making a low inverted pass with his BVM Bandit. When I was in Orlando Bob was a member of RCACF and flew there regularly. It was his home field.

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 3:46 PM   
Ed Smith


 

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Status: offline 		There is a very good reason that In AMA sanctioned Pylon Racing events the spectator line is 400' back from the flight line.

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 4:33 PM   
evan-RCU



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Status: offline 		Part of the waiver that every AMA member signs for turbine operation is that they understand there is a 200mph speed limit. So what's the issue?

If you want to fly your turbine over 200 do it at a non-AMA field and don't file an insurance claim with the AMA if something happens.

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 4:51 PM   
arcticflyer


 

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Status: offline 		I agree with safe flying 100%....I also feel that flying fast can be done in a safe manner. When flying my Magnum at speed on a Saturday I never make any turns towards the crowd and when making a low pass down the runway it it done in a way that the plane never points in the direction of the spectator area. When alot of guys and kids start showing up I put the Magnum away........but I am not a professional team......The full size airshow arguement doesn't flush because they routinely WRING airlplanes out within close proximity to the croud. Accidents happen routinely at airshows just get on YOU TUBE and watch them......I agree that not everyone should fly at those speeds at a high profile SHOW....just the "pros". It is done at full scale events and you cannot stop things from happening even at those events.

Let me tell you something....I would have felt safer with that team flying that jet at 250 than some of the guys I've seen show up at my local club with absolute JUNK that haven't flown in several months or even YEARS.....

Maybe I'm an alarmist.....maybe I'm seeing ghosts....but I read those FAA regs and I read the AMA responses and I see smoke on the horizon of the future. I'm curious how Speed Events will be viewed in the future...someone has to be up in that tower LOOKING FOR THE SMOKE

< Message edited by arcticflyer -- 7/18/2009 4:53 PM >

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 8:12 PM   
Ed Smith


 

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Status: offline 		A few people advocate safety and the reply is a Rant. Just what this forum needs!

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 8:52 PM   
Pappy


 

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Status: offline 		Here's the deal - this hobby can be dangerous = just like many others - boating, motorcycles, paintball etc. There is going to be accidents, it's not if - it's when. I don't really agree with a speed limit - but - people should take precautions and use good judgement. I don't want to be around someone who is exceeding 200mph and is a intermediate pilot. These planes can easily kill you - so use good judgement, and if you are'nt comfortable being around it or flying it that fast - do it somewhere else - like at a farm.

< Message edited by Pappy -- 7/18/2009 9:10 PM >

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 10:06 PM   
KC36330



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Status: offline 		we've had the 200mph limit sense the start of the waiver system, it's nothing new and it's why every turbine I've got only flies 199.999999 mph

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 10:22 PM   
vicman



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Status: offline 		Well stated KC.
This whole point is that the 200 limit is nothing new at all for the jet guys.


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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/18/2009 10:30 PM   
KC36330



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Status: offline 		truth be known 99% of the non jet guys can't visually look at one in flight and tell how fast it's going. my Flash has slightly better then 1.5 to 1 thrust to weight and will do 285 flat and level, i can make a 200mph low pass from a split S and then make a 250mph pass low and flat and 99% of the folks watching will think the split S was the faster pass.

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 12:24 AM   
mk1spitfire



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Status: offline 		Are the speed Police and Fun police from the same department?



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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 12:51 AM   
arcticflyer


 

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Status: offline 		I,m not talking about safety......like I said when the crowd shows up I put the Magnum away....at a recent fun fly my fellow club members wanted me to fly it because nothing at the club is that fast.....I quietly left it at home because I am not an expert and not comfortable flying it with a crowd at the field. I'm talking about EXPERTS at a SHOW. And for crying out loud why can a F5D do 250 and a turbine can't. Oh Yeah, and ED when you live in the US then you rate to call the post a rant until then.......well never mind.

< Message edited by arcticflyer -- 7/19/2009 12:52 AM >

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 1:26 AM   
Dan M


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MJD


quote:

ORIGINAL: Stick40

Combatpig has a very good point there. Why do you think there is so much regulation at real airshows? Its from the dangers presented from the aircraft. When it comes to big time rc airshows like warbirds over delaware or the such, with so many people there, the planes that are there, despite there small size compared to the full scale counterparts, can still cause lots of damage or lots of injury if one was to go down in the crowd. I think its wise that if your going to be milling around at 200+ that it should be reserved for local clubs or such where everyone there is aware of how much damage the aircraft could do. Im not at all bashing fast flying, i love to go fast, it just should be done with good judgement and at the proper locations.

Stick 40


Very recently in our area, a RC demo at an air show went wrong - a turbine powered model went out of control and was stopped by impacting a Harvard, rather than careening into the crowd. It made news, the incident did not get blown out of proportion by anyone that I could tell thank goodness and the good will of the aircraft owner, but it was a darn close call.

The higher the numbers the greater the possibility of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. With 200mph speeds so readily available by virtue of the just-add-money situation that exists today, I can't argue against the thought that limitations should be imposed at high-exposure events, and the high speed stuff be reserved for more controlled environments. Is the exposure so important that it justifies the increased risks inherent in RC aviation at progressively higher airspeeds?

If on the other hand it is a blanket limitation, then that sucks ass and it should darn well be applicable only in situations of increased public liability.

''IMHO'' of course

MJD



It was NOT a turbine powered model , it was a Ducted fan , and the only repairs to the harvard were Fabric repair to the horizontal stab . it was a low speed crash .



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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 1:32 AM   
Ed Smith


 

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quote:

And for crying out loud why can a F5D do 250 and a turbine can't.


before you rant you realy should get the facts right. F5D airplanes do not go 250 mph.

quote:

Oh Yeah, and ED when you live in the US then you rate to call the post a rant until then.......well never mind.


Agreed, I should have known that it is only Americans that can post senseless rants. The rest of us are far more civilised.

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 1:35 AM   
KC36330



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quote:

ORIGINAL: arcticflyer

.....................And for crying out loud why can a F5D do 250 and a turbine can't.



turbines have a higher risk of property damage. we carry in excess of a gallon of fuel onboard and at 200 mph that gallon can spread on impact for quiet some distance and fires can and have got out of hand because of it. although I've seen smoking holes from LiPo powered fomies, I've never seen a glow powered aircraft crash start a fire.

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 3:07 AM   
combatpigg



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quote:

ORIGINAL: arcticflyer

I,m not talking about safety...... I'm talking about EXPERTS at a SHOW.



AF, the pilot's skill level won't be able to fix a major problem in flight. The faster the plane, the more the expert becomes nothing more than another spectator when the plane stops responding to control input.

Obviously the 200 mph limit is unenforcable in some places, but at a big event where AMA is present, they would be derelict in their duty to not enforce the rule. If there was a catastrophy and it was discovered by our insurance provider that the speed limit was not even being checked or enforced......



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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 6:16 AM   
jessiej



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pappy

Here's the deal - this hobby can be dangerous = just like many others - boating, motorcycles, paintball etc. There is going to be accidents, it's not if - it's when.


And with all of these priority should be given to protectecting bystanders and spectators.

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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 6:21 AM   
vicman



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Status: offline 		Any sanctioned event will have an AMA presence since the role of CD is that of an AMA represenative.

If you aren't a jet jock then you really don't have a dog in the fight from my stand point.
While I'm not hitting 2 bills yet I'm trying every chance I can to do it.


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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 6:55 AM   
combatpigg



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Status: offline 		Vic, are you saying that since I don't have a jet my opinion doesn't matter?


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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 7:53 AM   
vicman



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Status: offline 		Nope.
However I am saying that this isn't a new issue at all and that it only pertains to the turbine waiver guys and not us lowbrow prop speed junkies. The OP suggests that this is something new and insinuates that the speed limit for turbines that has been in place for a long time is part of the FAA proposal. It is not.

Your opinion is important in regards to AMA's participation and adoption of the new FAA proposal for sure. I do not agree with any of us fueling a uninformed rant though. It's already been mentioned that anybody can go fly a plane faster than the speed of sound if they desire, just don't whine when the bill comes due.


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RE: THE SPEED POLICE HAVE ARRIVED!!!!! - 7/19/2009 8:17 AM   
combatpigg



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Status: offline 		I see.
Regardless of the 200 mph speed limit for turbines [that even the town librarian knows about], I think it is interesting to find out if guys think that having any limits under any circumstances is a good idea.


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