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110s Top End issues - 7/21/2009 6:23 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		I started up my 110s today, not realizing it has been about 10-12 days since it was flown last. Started up OK, warmed up and took off.

Lacking power very badly at the top end, so I landed. Engine was H-O-T!!! Sounded on the rough side at low to mid throttle.

Let it cool, started again and saw bubbles in the line from the diaphragm to the carb. Replaced the line, no luck.

Tried re-tuning: richened high speed needle 1/4 turn, went to max, dropped a few hundred rich. Engine was at 8700rpm and dropped a few hundred on it's own, again very hot.

Called YS Parts and Service - Dave is out of the country for weeks, man who answered the phone said there was not much he could do short of sending in the engine. He said the bubbles in the line to the carb were normal.

Fiddled with fuel lines and filter and tried again. TONS of vapor coming from the muffler at most speeds. Lack of power at top end, plane landed with engine hot again, smoking after it was shut off. Turning prop by hand let puffs of smoke come out muffler.

Flew again with needle more rich - not so hot, still lacking power, lots of vapor trail. Sounded much better in the air, but still lacking the top end power.

Never got rid of the bubbles in the carb line. No bubbles in line from tank or line from filter, just in line from diaphragm.


Tappets were recently adjusted and on the tighter side. Checked and replaced gasket after the valve cover came loose during last day of flying. Does not appear to be leaking, valves seem to be working properly.

Fuel was same fuel from a week ago, left in tank for a week. Engine does not get run dry or lubricated with after run, as per instructions on this site. Wildcat 20/20.


Engine has about 10 or so gallons of fuel through it, always running YS 20/20 from Wildcat.


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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/21/2009 4:38 PM   
wessco


 

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Status: offline 		The easiest thing that I've done when I encounter a bad running YS is to change the glow plug. Other than that....I don't have a clue.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/21/2009 4:54 PM   
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Status: offline 		Yep, sounds like it is going lean in the air. Check and double check all fuel lines and tank. The bubbles in the line between the regulator and carb are normal but if excessive, it would indicate a lack of pressure in the tank. It could also be some gunk in the regulator or fuel filter. The times I have had a weak glow plug, the engine would tend to load up, not go lean.

Check the valve cover gasket and pushrod tube o-rings as well. On the YS, the charged fuel mixture is forced into the chamber beneath the valve cover and then into the intake valve. The pushrod tubes are part of that chamber. This is how the rocker arms and camshaft get lubed. If there is a leak anywhere in this area, the engine could go lean at high RPM.

Hope this helps.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/21/2009 4:58 PM   
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Status: offline 		I had a problem a couple of weeks ago with a .63. Found a hole in one of the fuel lines at the regulator...somewhere that I never check. I never touch that area either, so don't know how it got there.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/21/2009 6:59 PM   
Zeeb



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Status: offline 		All good suggestions, but I'd double check your tappet clearance since you said it was on the tight side.

I set mine a bit tighter per advice I found here on this forum at .003 cold, but you gotta be careful as if you get 'em too tight there will be an issue with the valves seating properly.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/21/2009 10:11 PM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Thanks for all the suggestions. I will take them and will post updates.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/22/2009 8:38 PM   
Jimmy Skids



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quote:

ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

I started up my 110s today, not realizing it has been about 10-12 days since it was flown last. Started up OK, warmed up and took off.

Lacking power very badly at the top end, so I landed. Engine was H-O-T!!! Sounded on the rough side at low to mid throttle.

Let it cool, started again and saw bubbles in the line from the diaphragm to the carb. Replaced the line, no luck.

Tried re-tuning: richened high speed needle 1/4 turn, went to max, dropped a few hundred rich. Engine was at 8700rpm and dropped a few hundred on it's own, again very hot.

Called YS Parts and Service - Dave is out of the country for weeks, man who answered the phone said there was not much he could do short of sending in the engine. He said the bubbles in the line to the carb were normal.

Fiddled with fuel lines and filter and tried again. TONS of vapor coming from the muffler at most speeds. Lack of power at top end, plane landed with engine hot again, smoking after it was shut off. Turning prop by hand let puffs of smoke come out muffler.

Flew again with needle more rich - not so hot, still lacking power, lots of vapor trail. Sounded much better in the air, but still lacking the top end power.

Never got rid of the bubbles in the carb line. No bubbles in line from tank or line from filter, just in line from diaphragm.


Tappets were recently adjusted and on the tighter side. Checked and replaced gasket after the valve cover came loose during last day of flying. Does not appear to be leaking, valves seem to be working properly.

Fuel was same fuel from a week ago, left in tank for a week. Engine does not get run dry or lubricated with after run, as per instructions on this site. Wildcat 20/20.


Engine has about 10 or so gallons of fuel through it, always running YS 20/20 from Wildcat.



If you are 8700 RPM at wide open throttle the motor is being loaded up too much. These motors run best in the 9500 range. If you were getting higher RPM with the same prop before then there is an internal problem. Has the motor always run in the below 9K range? If so the problems may be a combination of warmer weather and the high prop load.

Also, Richard at YS is in Europe for the US team at the worlds..... He is gone for a couple of weeks. If there is something wrong inside the motor you would need to have it sent in to have it checked no matter what. These motors do not like to be run hot, and even one hot run can cause problems.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/22/2009 9:51 PM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		The engine has always been at 8700 (leaned down from 9000) RPM with a 15x10 APC and 20/20 fuel.

I checked the valve clearances. They were maybe at the minimum clearance, maybe a hair less. I think they were pretty close to .002. However I could definitely wiggle the rockers as there was some clearance. I loosened up the clearance to be slightly greater than the minimum suggestion in the manual.

I have to pull out the manual to understand where the push rod O-rings are so I haven't checked them yet.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/22/2009 10:49 PM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		I just tested the engine after the valve readjustment.

Engine still running very hot. Held at WOT for 10 seconds and engine started to smoke.

Killed engine and let pressure out of fuel line - MUCH less pressure "hiss" than I'm used to, so tank not holding pressure sounds like a possibility.

Idle sounds great, mid throttle sounds OK - not perfect but not bad, and anyone who doesn't know my engine would probably say it sounds fine. Top end sounds OK but gets hot.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/22/2009 10:54 PM   
tande


 

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The engine has always been at 8700 (leaned down from 9000) RPM with a 15x10 APC and 20/20 fuel.
Hope you mean't to say"Rich-end" down from 9000....Also a 15x10 APC sounds like a/bit/much....maybe not....Having said that, I have four 110s's, all on the shelf because I can't get them to run like I think they should....I have thirteen YS engines of all sizes encluding the early style 110's (not the s's) & they all run just fine....This is not my first Roedo....I'm convinced the 110s has regulator design issues & guess what?...the new 115 has an all newly designed regulator...FWIW

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/22/2009 10:58 PM   
gaRCfield



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quote:

The engine has always been at 8700 (leaned down from 9000) RPM with a 15x10 APC and 20/20 fuel.
Hope you mean't to say''Rich-end'' down from 9000....Also a 15x10 APC sounds like a/bit/much....maybe not....Having said that, I have four 110s's, all on the shelf because I can't get them to run like I think they should....I have thirteen YS engines of all sizes encluding the early style 110's (not the s's) & they all run just fine....This is not my first Roedo....I'm convinced the 110s has regulator design issues & guess what?...the new 115 has an all newly designed regulator...FWIW


Yes, I meant richened down from 9000rpm.

Edit:

I just pressurized the system by turning the prop 10 times. As I turn the prop through compression, I start to hear air leaking out. It only happens when the prop is 1/4 turn passed full compression. I have to run to the store but will take off the cowl and examine more closely when I get back.

Any thoughts on a way to pressurize the system and check for leaks would be greatly appreciated.

Speaking of which, all of your help and suggestions are greatly appreciated. I'm the only one at my club with a YS four stroke, and being in my second year of flying planes I would be totally lost and frustrated without all of your help. Now I am not frustrated in the slightest bit (of course that's assuming it will be fixed before next weekend!) and am eager to learn all about these engines.

< Message edited by gaRCfield -- 7/22/2009 11:09 PM >

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/22/2009 11:13 PM   
tande


 

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Is there a suggested method to check the system for leaks?
Hi Joe ...Well, the fuel/supply side (tank & related plumbing) should "Hold" pressure for several hours, even days after engine has stopped....That will tell you if you have leak issues....Quite honestly your description sounds like you MAY have some heat related damage (hope/not)...like cylinder/wall scoring....How does the crank/over (by hand) compression feel?....

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/22/2009 11:25 PM   
tande


 

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I just pressurized the system by turning the prop 10 times. As I turn the prop through compression, I start to hear air leaking out. It only happens when the prop is 1/4 turn passed full compression.

Any thoughts on a way to pressurize the system and check for leaks would be greatly appreciated.
My guess is the "Air" you hear leaking is the normal "Triggering" of the regulator releasing tank pressure/fuel to the carb.....the clue is when you say "only happens when the prop is 1/4 turn passed full compression."....
You just figured/out how to pressurize the system....run the engine....That will automatically include all the active circuits...

< Message edited by tande -- 7/22/2009 11:32 PM >

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/22/2009 11:42 PM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Yes, the air I hear seems to be coming from the carb.

Compression actually feels really, really good.

I will pressurize tank and let it sit while I run to the store.

I called the LHS asking about gaskets. He started asking questions and said 'junk in the carb' or possibly a head gasket.

What can I take apart on the engine without having any replacement gaskets/o-rings? (obviously I'm going to order a set of ___ today).

< Message edited by gaRCfield -- 7/22/2009 11:43 PM >

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/22/2009 11:59 PM   
tande


 

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He started asking questions and said 'junk in the carb' or possibly a head gasket.
"Junk/in/the/carb"?...I doubt it...regulator MAYBE (a symptom would be fuel dripping from carb throat after engine shutdown....engine mounted 90* or inverted) You do use a filter just ahead of the reg...right ??....Yes the valve/rocker/cover gasket IS critical to the operation of the "YS" principal...I make my own from auto/parts/store gasket material...The original YS gasket will not tolerate many cover/remove/install cycles...If you are VERY carefull you can reuse most any of the gaskets/O rings (I do it all the time)...Before you install a gasket, lightly coat both sides with "Antisieze" (auto/parts/store) to keep it from sticking upon next removal...If it were me I would be wanting to know what the cylinder/wall looks like (being VERY carefull with the cylinder/base/gasket...

< Message edited by tande -- 7/23/2009 12:08 AM >

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/23/2009 2:00 AM   
42etus



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Status: offline 		I agree with tande on several things, Joe. First I think the 15x10 is a bit much. This engine really likes to turn about 9500 rpm. Second, your LHS isn't helping any. It is unlikely any junk will collect in the carb. it's far more likely that junk, if present, will collect in the regulator. If you don't have one already, you should install a filter in the line between the tank and the regulator. Head gasket problems???? This engine doesn't have a seperate head. There is no head gasket.
What happens if you richen the mixture so much that the engine starts blubbering? If that cools it down, your problem is most likely an air leak somewhere.
You said that the valve cover came loose during flying. Was it OK until that happened and then the problems started?
Paul

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/23/2009 2:29 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Tried running it again. Bubbles in line to carb are minimal. I started it very rich and leaned it to where it was just a smooth rpm/pitch. Not quite as bad but still ended up smoking.

One thing I'm noticing now is some kind of a sucking sound from the carb when it's running. Don't recall hearing that before. It's coming right out of the carb opening.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/23/2009 5:08 AM   
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Status: online 		Joe,

You may need to check the color of the fresh exhaust residue (on wings and elevators). If it is very dark, it could be that the bearings have worn out (hence the friction and running hot).

15X10 probably is too much a load. I am running 15X8 on my YS110 (not the 110s) and Rich at YS service recommended 14X10. I also found my YS110 running hot after the 1st flight (on Venus II). It could be that the exit cut-out on that plane is not big enough. What plane is yours with the YS110s?

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/23/2009 5:27 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Been running on the Venus II also, but with no cowl. I have the engine mounted and cowl cut out now so that pretty much the whole head sticks out the side of the cowl. Should not be an issue. Whole bottom of cowl is also cutout for 120AX engine that I had on the plane before.

Heavy loaded prop seems to be a recurring theme here. I've got a few 15x8-10 Zingers (Wood) I can try. Not sure what happened to my 15x8 Graupner.

Going to open up the cylinder and do a quick checkup. I have not noticed any dark residue.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/23/2009 6:24 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		I don't see any signs of rust. There was some carbon buildup on one of the valves and around the valves, and some minor scratches on the inside of the cylinder. Something looks brown in the pic but really it was just fuel colored oil. I tried to get some pics but tough lighting and a cheap camera didn't help the quality:

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< Message edited by gaRCfield -- 7/23/2009 6:28 AM >

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/23/2009 6:27 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Here are some to show the cleaned up cylinder and the piston and surrounding area:


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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/23/2009 3:46 PM   
tande


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Joe....We're PROUD of you, Good Job!....Carefully reassemble & go fly (with a smaller prop)...Please keep us posted...
Ed

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/23/2009 3:59 PM   
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Status: offline 		Joe,
nice to see a person who does nice work.
i agree with the others that the 15x10 is too much.
before i ran my 110s i did a lot of research and reading here, and always came away with the same search results in which Troy always recommended a 15x8 on 20/20 fuel, and 15x10 when using 30% heli fuel.

i've been running mine on 20/20 with an APC 15x8 and ran it rich for quite some time. at almost a gallon thru it the settings changed a lot............it basically told me to quite ****fottin' aroun and tweak me.........out of the box it was strong, at 1 gallon it lost power until i tweaked the needle which is now 1 turn out from closed. haven't touched it since.

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/24/2009 2:04 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Ok heat seems to be less of an issue. Getting a few hundred more rpm (9000) and not crazy hot but hot. Now it is surging at 4000 rpm and it dead sticked on landing. 15x8 graupner (don't like).

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RE: 110s Top End issues - 7/24/2009 2:20 AM   
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Status: offline 		have you ran fuel through the regulator? the surging, I would think, would have something to do with the regulator.

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