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So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 8:59 PM   
Pete737



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Status: offline 		....A CO2 for a hot/wet start, A dry chemical on hand if the worst happens??

I didn't know CO2 is totally ineffective against high energy fires? Really??

Pete





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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 9:15 PM   
check6ii


 

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Status: offline 		In viewing this video, it appears that the spray from the extinguisher is spraying everywhere except where the fire is.........its spraying toward the user, not at the fire. Also, the pilot seemed to take his time getting to the model until he noticed the fire. A little faster response and proper use of the extinguisher may have had a different outcome.

Sorry for your loss.

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 9:19 PM   
Eddie P



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Page 2, item 16. Look at it from the source document, don't just take my word for it as written below:

1) Water extinguisher present at field
2) One B/C or Equivalent extinguisher for engine starts

Nowhere does it say chemical is effective, nor does it say CO2 is ineffective. The Water extinguisher is a way to say an extinguisher that is capable of putting out solid class A fires, like grass or structures. I would NOT ever use chemical on my jet, unless it's in pieces on the ground and then it would be second choice to water. CO2 will work for a hot start and a fuel fire but it's known to be an excellent B/C agent that does not work "great" for an A class fire, like simple water does.

quote:

ORIGINAL: check6ii

In viewing this video, it appears that the spray from the extinguisher is spraying everywhere except where the fire is.........i



As Check says, proper USE is just as important and having an extinguisher, or one of the proper type.

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 9:30 PM   
rhklenke



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Status: offline 		Pete,

Yes, you do need to have two fire extinguishers. You need a CO2 fire extinguisher to put out an engine fire with a minimal impact on your engine (i.e., after putting out a hot start with CO2, most engines can be started right back up). According to the AMA safety code, "A “B/C”-rated or equivalent fire extinguisher shall be present for all engine starts. Water based fire fighting equipment shall be present on the field."

That means that if the club does not have a water-based fire extinguisher at the field, you have to carry your own. This requirement is primarily intended to put out grass fires, but it could also have been used on the aircraft fire in the video. I have had two crashes (recently ) that resulted in a fire, and it both cases, water-based fire extinguishers were used to put them out completely. Some will say that water-based extinguishers will ruin any equipment that isn't burned, but actually, dry chemical is worse in that regard.

I carry the normal CO2 fire extinguisher and an Indian Fire Pump (http://www.edarley.com/finditem/11195) in my trailer...

Bob

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 9:30 PM   
AndyAndrews


 

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Status: offline 		CO2 works great on a jet fire. You have to aim it properly at the fire though lol. The problem with co2 is that it runs out really fast. You must actually point it at the hottest part of the fire. Looks like he didn't even touch the fire with CO2

Forgot to say: Yes you do need at least two fire extinguishers. One CO2 and one Water - Min. IMO.

Andy

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 9:30 PM   
sailing1


 

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Status: offline 		This is one of those areas were "excess" is not excessive. I carry a 5 lb CO2 that sets beside the plane on starts, a 2.5 lb dry cemical extinguisher that is always in my flight bag and on my cart I have a 3 gallon presurized water extinguisher that goes where my jet goes. This is still probably not enough for the "big one". Even with all or these tools I still think preperation and common sense are our best tools to prevent fires. So far I have not had to use my little fire department on anything RC. I did help put out a fire on a guys car engine on one trip home from the field though, so I guess it pays to be prepaired.

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 9:33 PM   
Eddie P



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Status: offline 		I watched the video, it looks like the first fire extinguisher failed at the valve, it was spraying all over the place, forward and aft, and did not look to deliver properly due to that. You need 1-fuel, 2-heat and 3-oxygen for a fire. CO2 removes the oxygen. In a fully developed fire with solids and heat remaining in the solids, you need to cool it down too, or as soon as the o2 is back, the fire hot spot ignites again as all three fire ingredients are present again to support combustion. CO2 works great for what it is intended for, a B/C fire, not for an A class solid fire.

I carry a pressurized water extinguisher, a 10 pound CO2 extinguisher, and a 5 pound Halon extinguisher. I agree with the guys above, you can't have too much when you have a fire going.

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 10:14 PM   
Pete737



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Status: offline 		I have access to an FFFW type extinguisher, I think Ill get a hold of it now..

Pete

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 10:19 PM   
smaze17


 

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Status: offline 		Did he not shut down the turbine upon impact? I've seen crashes WAY worse than that with no fire. The fence must have ruptured the fuel cell and then the kero must have ignited on the hot engine I guess....

SM

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 10:31 PM   
Pete737



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Status: offline 		Kero ignites on a hot (off) engine?

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 10:34 PM   
erbroens



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Status: offline 		Very bad luck.. not only for the accident, but because the airplane was left with the fuselage intact in such a position on the fence, not allowing the effective use of any kind of extinguisher.




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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 10:57 PM   
mick15



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Status: offline 		He had the fire extinguisher upside down!!

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 11:48 PM   
David Searles


 

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Status: offline 		Guys,

Think about how the fire extinguisher works. A co2 extinguisher works by momentarily,robbing the fire of a key ingrediant it needs, AIR! As a result it works great in a more or less enclosed environment, like the exhaust tube, fuselage compartment, where it can temporarily evacuate all of the oxygen. In an open flame fire, as shown on the video, it's very difficult for this type of extinguisher to displace enough oxygen, for a long enough period, to extinguish the fire. Hence you get re-ignition as soon as oxygen is able to reach the source.

For an un-contained fire you need some type of chemical or water which will extinguish the fire at it's source, and remain in place long enough to prevent re-ignition.

David S

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 11:50 PM   
smaze17


 

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Status: offline 		Sorry Pete - I was just wondering if the pilot shut the engine down immediately on impact or not? It seemed like quite a little while before the fire actually started. Maybe the engine was running the whole time??

Sm

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/11/2009 11:59 PM   
digitech


 

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Status: offline 		co2 works great like somoen else said fire needs air

you need to get to the air on the lowest point of the fire and spray away...
worked everytime!


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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/12/2009 12:02 AM   
Pete737



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< Message edited by Pete737 -- 8/12/2009 12:34 AM >

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/12/2009 12:11 AM   
smaze17


 

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Status: offline 		Sorry Pete - I was just wondering if the pilot shut the engine down immediately on impact or not? It seemed like quite a little while before the fire actually started. Maybe the engine was running the whole time??

Sm

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/12/2009 12:31 AM   
rhklenke



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quote:

ORIGINAL: David Searles

Guys,

Think about how the fire extinguisher works. A co2 extinguisher works by momentarily,robbing the fire of a key ingrediant it needs, AIR! As a result it works great in a more or less enclosed environment, like the exhaust tube, fuselage compartment, where it can temporarily evacuate all of the oxygen. In an open flame fire, as shown on the video, it's very difficult for this type of extinguisher to displace enough oxygen, for a long enough period, to extinguish the fire. Hence you get re-ignition as soon as oxygen is able to reach the source.

For an un-contained fire you need some type of chemical or water which will extinguish the fire at it's source, and remain in place long enough to prevent re-ignition.

David S


David is quite right. In the three fires I've been involved with - two turbines, and one gas-powered UAV, the CO2 extinguisher, even if used correctly and is working correctly, was only enough to knock the fire down while the CO2 was coming out. In all three cases, the fire re-ignited once the CO2 was exhausted and thus a second type of fire extinguisher was needed.

As far as the ignition source, remember that the engine is NOT the only source of ignition. In the gas-powered UAV crash, the batteries caused the fire, and I have also seen a post-crash fire in a turbine-powered plane that was also caused by shorted batteries - LiPos in this case, that flamed and ignited the kero...

Bob

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/12/2009 12:36 AM   
Pete737



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quote:

ORIGINAL: smaze17

Sorry Pete - I was just wondering if the pilot shut the engine down immediately on impact or not? It seemed like quite a little while before the fire actually started. Maybe the engine was running the whole time??

Sm


I was wondering the same thing, But there is a bit off white smoke when the plane comes to a rest, I haven't seen that much but I do see that when an engine is shut down..

Pete

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/12/2009 1:47 AM   
BaldEagel



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Status: offline 		I would be interested to know if it had on board Butane?

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/12/2009 3:20 AM   
FILE IFR



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quote:

ORIGINAL: mick15

He had the fire extinguisher upside down!!


I noticed that too. Does it matter if held upside down with a CO2 extinguisher? I can't inagine a fluid/clunk inside the container though, so I would think any attitude you held it, it will work.

... As long as you spray the base of the fire

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/12/2009 4:27 AM   
psb667


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rhklenke

quote:

ORIGINAL: David Searles

Guys,

Think about how the fire extinguisher works. A co2 extinguisher works by momentarily,robbing the fire of a key ingrediant it needs, AIR! As a result it works great in a more or less enclosed environment, like the exhaust tube, fuselage compartment, where it can temporarily evacuate all of the oxygen. In an open flame fire, as shown on the video, it's very difficult for this type of extinguisher to displace enough oxygen, for a long enough period, to extinguish the fire. Hence you get re-ignition as soon as oxygen is able to reach the source.

For an un-contained fire you need some type of chemical or water which will extinguish the fire at it's source, and remain in place long enough to prevent re-ignition.

David S


David is quite right. In the three fires I've been involved with - two turbines, and one gas-powered UAV, the CO2 extinguisher, even if used correctly and is working correctly, was only enough to knock the fire down while the CO2 was coming out. In all three cases, the fire re-ignited once the CO2 was exhausted and thus a second type of fire extinguisher was needed.

As far as the ignition source, remember that the engine is NOT the only source of ignition. In the gas-powered UAV crash, the batteries caused the fire, and I have also seen a post-crash fire in a turbine-powered plane that was also caused by shorted batteries - LiPos in this case, that flamed and ignited the kero...

Bob



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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/12/2009 6:20 AM   
causeitflies



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Status: online 		Looks like Carlos needs some fire extinguisher training. Not sure what the liquid CO2 does to the valve but it can't be good holding the thing upside down. The gas is coming out in two opposite directions. You certainly can't aim it well that way even if it did work.

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/12/2009 6:35 AM   
Flyin Beagle



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Status: offline 		What is the problem with an ABC fire extinguisher??? It is the most readily available extinguisher type, and works on the three main types of fire. A-combustible material like wood paper Etc, B-combustible/flamable liquids (jet A, kerosene, Gasoline, Nitro methane), C- electrical. All three of these are the only likly types of the fire in the video. Another good attribute of this type of extinguisher is that it is persistent and cannot just be blown away in the wind. I am sure that properly used it would have extinguished the fire in the video. Yes it would have made a mess, but given the alternative that we witnessed in the video I would have much rather spent a great deal of time cleaning up my crashed plane.

CO2 is not nearly as effective as a dry chem extinguisher in that situation, because even the slightest wind will blow the CO2 away from the fire and you have done nothing. We all know from elementary school that water is not effective on a oil (grease) fires, and can spred the fire making it worse. As mentioned above an AFFF (Aqueous Film Forming Foam) fire extinguisher would have been excellent, but these are not as readily available as other types to the general public.

I keep an ABC extiguisher in all of my vehicles, my boat, kitchen garages, shop, and utility room. It's cheap insurance.

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RE: So I guess you need 2 fire extinguishers?? - 8/12/2009 6:41 AM   
Pete737



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Status: offline 		AFFF is what I meant, not FFFW

Just have to get it out of storage, Damn heavy though. I wonder how effective AFFF is compared to Dry chem?

Pete

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