What's the diff

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john flynn -> What's the diff (6/28/2003 5:31:12 AM)
Gidday to all, could someone tell me the difference between methanol and ethanol, not the scientific version please. What I want to know is whether ethanol could be used in the place of methanol for our engines. I was gonna just go ahead and try but thought better to find out some info first. Thanks in advance for any replies. Regards, John.

john flynn -> What's the diff (6/28/2003 6:18:08 AM)
Silly me, I did a search after I submitted the question and found plenty of info on this subject. However, it seems that there are many differing views so I'm still not sure. Here in Australia we have a product called Methylated Spirits (sold chilled by some unscrupulous storeowners) which contains 96% ethanol, someother substance to stop the hardups from drinking it ( but they still do, mixed with orange juice) and a little water. The instuctions state that it can be used as a fuel in burners and lamps, nothing about internal combustion use. Would a mix of 77% of this product, 20% castor oil and 3% actetone power our engines without damage? On another note, if a car has a little water in the fuel tank pour in a bottle of this stuff as it readily mixes with the water and will burn it off. Regards, John.

JWN -> What's the diff (6/28/2003 6:58:55 AM)
Ethanol is grain alcohol, made from corn I believe, and will not produce the "catalyst" reaction needed to keep the platinum in the coil of the glow plug lit when you remove the glow lighter. Methanol OTOH is highly poisonous and will kill, or blind you, if you drink it. John

downunder-RCU -> What's the diff (6/28/2003 7:28:45 PM)
John..I'm not entirely sure if ethanol will give the catalytic reaction or not. Ethanol is drinking alcohol anyway and I'd rather think the cost of pure ethanol would be considerably higher than methanol (currently around $1.20 or so per litre). Hadn't heard of metho mixed with orange juice though...it always used to be metho and boot polish :D

puffmaru-RCU -> Ethanol (6/30/2003 7:10:28 AM)
Ethanol can be made from just about any fermentable substance. Corn, wheat, barley, oats, grapes, etc., etc. When distilled into pure alchohol, it can be cut with water to become vodka. I don't understand why anyone would want to power their engine with the main ingredient of vodka! Puff

Homebrewer -> What's the diff (6/30/2003 7:54:09 AM)
Ethanol doesn't have the same catalytic reaction with the platinum alloy in the glow plug element as methanol does. You can run ethanol if you wish if you convert to spark use.

crashlessons -> Science (7/19/2003 2:46:38 AM)
I don't know about burn rates and what works/doesn't work with glo engines or why, but (I know you said no science) the ethane family is: ethane c h4, methane c2 h6, propane c3 h8, butane c4h10. Grain alcohol is ethane , considered safe to drink (go figure) and mathane is wood alcohol, considered unsafe to drink. Both are known to be very highly toxic substances. Any one want to stop over at the flight field, have a barley soda, and burn some nitro?

john flynn -> What's the diff (8/22/2003 12:56:15 PM)
Hello fellas, Crashlesson, are you saying to make methanol one has to ferment and then distil wood? If so, would any type of sawdust do or is there a particular tree it must come from? Thanks for your help. Regards, John.

crashlessons -> What's the diff (8/22/2003 4:14:16 PM)
I used to have the plans for a biomass cracking plant that Henry Ford used to make methanol in his back yard. He burned it in his car trying to show the American people that it was cheaper than gasoline. The plans were quite simple as I remember. The US government (notice I didn't say American government) made the hemp he used illegal but he continued making home brew fuel for 4 years anyway. I don't know what I did with the plans but I remember it was a simple to build and use set up. The article said any biomass (plant matter) was useful but some worked better and faster than others. Once in a while I'll find or hear of a dairy around here that has a methane trap built in the roof of the cattle barn which provides most of the energy to heat the barn. The owners are always very hush hush about it cuz the US government doesn't like us burning anything unless we buy it from them. Do a search on biomass cracking plant on the internet to see what turns up. The article said every house should have one of these little plants in the back yard making their own fuel for their car, hot water, cooking and home heating from what ever plant matter was available in their area. If that search doesn't bring any answers, try doing a search for a guy named Jack Heror. (might be double r, can't remember) He wrote a book I read years ago called The Emperor Wears No Clothes which discusses cracking biomass for methanol, it may have some leads. I think his book is still available. Yes, I just did a google search on the book emporer wears no clothes. Jack has a web site, his last name is spelled Herer. Looks like most of the book can be read on line without buying it in hard copy. The guy is pro marijuana so if you're not interested in that subject, just over look any info there and read what is discussed about energy. It was many years ago that I read it but I recall it was a very informative book. On another note, reading through this thread, I know my plane will fly on orange juice. I spilled some on the wing one time and it still flew just fine. I quit drinking about 10 years ago or else I'd try spilling some orange juice and vodka on it. I'm sure the plane would still fly, just not sure how well I could. :)

john flynn -> What's the diff (8/22/2003 5:14:02 PM)
Thanks for your informative reply Crashlessons. I've done a thorough search and found many sites refering to jacks book (very interesting reading). However, I was unable to find any specific plans for the cracking plant. I feel if Henry Ford was able to build one in the 30's, I reckon I could knock one up now, just need the know how. It appears that hemp is the prefered biomass to use, but for obvious reasons that's not possible. My aim is to save money by making my own ( I'm a disabled pensioner) and if I grew the hemp, I wouldn't have to worry about the cost of methanol. Anyway, thanks again for your insights and if you do manage to come across a site with plans please drop me a line. Regards, John.

crashlessons -> What's the diff (8/22/2003 7:55:34 PM)
If I recall correctly, I found the plans in a High Times Magazine back in the early 80's. I was a bit wild during high school and for a few years afterwards and ,,,,,, well I guess it's all just product of a mis-spent youth. Try contacting HT Mag. I don't know if it's still published but I'm sure it is. If it is, they probably have a web site. Email Jack from his web site, he might have it in all his study notes and stuff. There is an alternate energy seminar that I'm going to in a few weeks. The subject is using used cooking oil to make diesel fuel for our farm tractors and irrigation systems and such. I'm guessing they will go into smashing beans for fuel and other ideas too and I can ask around while I'm there and see if anyone has any information on methanol. I'll see what I can dig up. Also, look around at public libraries. Sometimes here in America I find old books there. Most libraries here have been hit by govt though and a lot of old books have been taken and destroyed. Especially old history books pre 1850. They can't have people learning too much you understand. For instance, I know a guy who was curious about the bomb shelters that were such a craze here in the late 50's, 60's and early 70's and he said the books are all gone from every library he's gone to. I know others who have researched various other topics and have had librarians tell them that the books were all taken. Interesting times we live in. If Australia is like it is here, you probably won't run an alternate fuel project for very long. Here you get a friendly visit from feds and they "borrow" your equipment and warn you not to try it again.

Sport_Pilot -> What's the diff (8/22/2003 11:00:36 PM)
The catalytic effect is effective on most all hydro carbons and alcohols. While it is different from one fuel to another, it is probably not as important as the auto ignition temperature. This is the temperature where a mixture of air and fuel will ignite, or the temperature a glow plug or spark plug will have to heat fuel in its immediate area. Take Methanol which is 464 degrees Centigrade (C), and nitro which has an auto ignition temperature of 417 C. You can run pure nitro if you have a cold plug, this is because of both the lower ignition temperature and its tendency to detonate. Compare that to gasoline which will not run in our present glow engines which will ignite at 250 C, this is why using gas in glow will detonate, run hot, and kick back, also the reason a small amount of gas helps winter operation. Ethanol has an auto ignition temperature of 363 degrees C. Since the octane rating is similar to methanol I suspect it is usable with a colder plug. However, It won't have as much power, and will cost more than methanol.

crashlessons -> What's the diff (8/23/2003 12:35:13 AM)
Sport Pilot, Good post! that should help the guys who want to make fuel and save money. Tell them (and me) where to gain more understanding. Also, I'd like some info on the dangers of such an endeavor. Airplane glow fuel ignites very easily and has always scared me just a little. Dump some on the ground and throw a match at it. It ignites and burns differently by quite a margin from gasoline. It's quicker, like coleman lantern fuel. Speaking of coleman fuel, can it play a role in model airplaning? It's pretty cheap in comparison. About 3.50 per gallon US. Thanks for the info.

john flynn -> What's the diff (8/23/2003 6:15:40 AM)
Crashlessons, I too had a miss-spent youth and people who know me say I'm still miss-spending :D . I have emailed Jack and High Times so I wait patiently for their replies. Thanks for your offer of attaining more info from the seminar. Sport-Pilot, your info has given me food for further thought. I can obtain ethanol for next to nothing and if I mix a high percentage of nitromethane with it, wouldn't this bring the ignition temp up to a level similar to methanol? I'm thinking the meth in the nitromethane would be enough for the catalytic reaction with the platinum. Sport_pilot, can you verify or discredit this? Thanks fellas for your patience, as I said, my youth was miss-spent. I have to rely on the intelligence of others such as yourselves. Regards, John.

Sport_Pilot -> What's the diff (8/23/2003 6:45:43 AM)
The nitro would bring the average temp up but it would still be less than methanol. It should also improve any catalytic reaction, though I don't know if it would be any less with ethanol. Platinum works by attracting nitrogen so that the fuel molecules near the element are more exposed to oxygen. Glow plugs also work by heat retention, since the fuel burns hotter near the element there is more heat to retain. I can't say how well it would work but if you have to use a lot of nitro that would ruin any cost savings. Another problem is getting ethanol dry enough to give a good idle. 180 proof is 90% pure with the rest mostly water.

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