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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/18/2012 11:51 PM   
crashlander


 

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Status: offline 		I have been looking at that Duplicolor (I saw them at Pep Boys automotive) and they seemed very interesting. I have an old pattern airplane (15 years old) with an epoxy paint finish that needs refinishing. And I was considering Duplicolor as the refinishing agent. What caught my interest, they have ready mixed colors in spray can, no hardner, no reducer etc required; sort of just point and shoot and you are done. No cleanup mess to play with.

Orlando

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/18/2012 11:56 PM   
crankpin


 

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Vince,

sounds wise to me. You might have better luck with Duplicolor actually. Just make sure you let the white LK flash for a week after you have wet sanded it. Leave no luster on it - it must be mat.

Then, you can shoot the colors atop using primer in between. Krylon white primer works very well with Duplicolor Perfect Match lacquer it's just a matter of making sure that the LK doesn't reject it but I have a good feeling about it. Don't be shy with the primer - it must provide a uniform substrate for the DC to follow.

Once all the colors are shot, leave it for a couple of days and sand the works down with 800 followed by 1500 or 2000 all wet of course.

Then choose a good day for doing the critical CC. That's where you can go with the 2K SprayMax urethane. It's like spraying butter!



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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/19/2012 9:53 AM   
crankpin


 

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Status: offline 		I am going to finish this P6 with LK. A new project will be coming up, I will go to Dupli-Color from the strart. I have more Phoenix kits here, I'll just pick one. Dox, thanks for the info.

Vince

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/19/2012 1:56 PM   
doxilia



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Status: offline 		My one quibble with DC is the lack of availability of bright and punchy colors that we like for visibility in our models. It's pretty tough to get a good yellow or orange for example - they just don't paint cars in those colors that much. On the other hand, there are about 10 different kinds of black and blue...

I also wouldn't use DC enamels - the quality isn't great but the lacquer is fine.

Vince, you might still want to go with SM 2K clear urethane for the final blending coat on this P6, just do a quick test on a pre painted and sanded test board but clear 2K urethane can pretty much go on top of anything. For good adhesion it's important that the substrate be "flattened" which is of course what the wet sanding accomplishes.

DC lacquer can be shot straight with 2K SM but I wouldn't do it with LK and why do it anyway - the wet sanding gives that nice look. I also wouldn't use LK clear as it will eventually succumb to UV yellowing.

Last but not least, don't sand the CC - it won't need it. If you do, be prepared for plenty of buffing work to bring it back up. Polishing the CC is fine after a few days. It will convert the feel of it from buttery to silky and fluids will just spill right off the surface as it will have very low surface tension.

David

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/19/2012 4:03 PM   
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Status: offline 		One further thought if painting with quick drying lacquer. If DC doesn't have the colour you are looking for, one can also use Testors lacquer. They come in little 3 oz cans so they are ideal for trim colors for one off jobs. They have a nice selection of punchy colours.

http://www.testors.com/category/137169/Lacquer_Paints

David

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/20/2012 1:37 AM   
crankpin


 

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Status: offline 		wet sanding today, only wing left. I could try one of them on the bottom of the stab.
V

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/20/2012 2:34 AM   
DougC1


 

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Status: offline 		Tell me if I'm wrong, but is wet sanding the final color coat to feather the edges of the different colors so there is rounded edges? remove particulate? rough surface for Clear Coat adhesion? I'm assuming that "orange peel" isn't the reason.

Pleased to know that you have painting temperatures......snowing here..........

DougC

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/20/2012 3:15 AM   
doxilia



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Status: offline 		Doug,

Snowing a little further North up here too - new snowshoes to try out this weekend!

To answer your questions, yes, to all three of them. Ideally you're not aiming to "round" the edges of the painted colors though. The idea is to flatten the paint without having different levels. This is where a CC takes care of leaving a uniform surface for pleasing aesthetics as well as durability, gloss and fuel and environmental proofness.

Orange peeling is pretty rare with fast drying paint like lacquer. This type of paint goes on a bit like primers do - dusty and fast drying!

David

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/20/2012 9:01 AM   
crankpin


 

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Status: offline 		Good explanation David. Have to use good tape. 3M has a lighter weight tape, the edges are great. After taping, dust the edges, so any bleed will be only clear. Taking tape off, you have to pull it right over itself. Picture here of P-6 #1, I think this is right before final wet sand. Second picture before the blue. Picture with Rossi, close up, finished.
Vince

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/20/2012 11:32 AM   
dhal22


 

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Status: offline 		Vince, I like the green Frog tape for painting or even better the crepe paper masking tape. The crepe paper tape is available from high end automotive airbrush and paint gun supply stores.

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/20/2012 12:27 PM   
crankpin


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks David, I'll check it out. Sending you a PM.

Vince

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/20/2012 9:42 PM   
crankpin


 

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Status: offline 		Canopy first, had little time today, had to get this started. If we wait till the right time to do something, the right time never comes. Tape off after alcohol clean. At the 90's, and front of canopy, run tape 45 across, then use a #11 to cut the radius. Don't use a BB pen, the ink will bleed thru the tape. After all taped, dust the edges with clear. If it bleeds, only the clear will bleed, save the color line. Then color apply, this canopy is silver. You can see the one picture, where the cuts were made, same in front edges, each side. You can do this free hand, just look ahead of the curve where you want it to go, easy. Other pictures, after application, last picture it has dried about an hour, orange peel fading out, to smooth. Lot of masking to do, as three more colors to apply. Back at this next week, busy day tomorrow. Football Sunday, drink some suds, go Ravens and Giants.
Crank

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/20/2012 10:01 PM   
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Status: offline 		Very cool thread. You're doing a great job on this and I'm learning a lot here.

How would a canopy look if you shoot a translucent blue over it. Is that how some of the canopies are done?


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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/21/2012 12:41 AM   
crankpin


 

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Status: offline 		Like to keep it clean, plain. Best finish, style less complicated the better. There are guys that do that, even on the very expensive FAI planes, faded color lines on the canopy's, etc. This is old style, very old, 60's - 70's stuff, coming alive again. I did another complete build thread pictures, on P-6 #1, everything here is total de-javu.

Thanks for the nice comments. Should start lining off the masking, length of fuselage, next week. Line from nose to end of rudder, will sweep up, three colors, with size definition.

Crank

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/21/2012 2:59 PM   
hook57


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dhal22
Vince, I like the green Frog tape for painting or even better the crepe paper masking tape. The crepe paper tape is available from high end automotive airbrush and paint gun supply stores.


She's looking great Vince, keep it coming at us.  I'm nearing the paint stage on the Tiger Tail III I got from you a few years back and this thread is very helpful. I need to keep it simple and seventy-ish too. So I was going to go DC on the primer but right next to the DC was Rustoleum primer (in auto store). Rusto has a variety of the primers including a self-etching one.  I picked up one can of the Rusto high build and one can of the sandable primers.  Got to thinking, which should I use first? Each can states each is sandable, but the "sandable" one also says it's a scratch filler primer. Anyhow, they contained 50% more primer for a few cents more so I thought I'd give it a try; but thought I'd post here before I do. The paint I plan to use is a urethane, same stuff SWA uses on the 737 fleet, suppose to adhere to water even .  Any thoughts David, Vince?

Mark

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/21/2012 3:16 PM   
crankpin


 

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Status: offline 		Mark - My brother painted a glass fuse with white appliance paint, may have been Rust-O-Leum. It came out great. The consistency may be heavier, dunno, but light coats, then final wet sand, should be good. I don't know about which clear on top of this. Scratch Filler, would be a heavy primer, my opinion.
Vince

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/21/2012 6:55 PM   
dhal22


 

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Status: offline 		Mark,

I bought a 1/2 gal or gallon of filler primer from Sherwin Williams after I saw how many spray cans I went through on another project. The cool thing I figured out was why worry about being neat applying the primer, it's going to be sanded off anyway. I primed my Blue Angel with a foam roller. After the primer dried I sanded the bulk of it away. At that point most paints will adhere just fine. There is a white sealer primer available if you wish to take it a step further.

Have fun.

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/21/2012 7:35 PM   
crankpin


 

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Status: offline 		This is not the real deal, you can see the pencil marks, measure, mark, run tape as a prelude to set up long run on tape. These test strips allow to mark where final will go. Then, start laying first tape, bending as you go. See if it is going to run on the measured marks. This will be done more then once. Final, make corrected marks, after next to final taping, it has to flow, no definite breaks in the lines. Dunno if the front of the canopy will run to the spinner, or break half way, soft curve around, other colors follow it. There will be a Cub Yellow stripe in here, separating the white blue and red. I will print the first picture, then able to make design with color pencil, on paper before tape and paint. Crank

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/22/2012 9:47 PM   
doxilia



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quote:

ORIGINAL: hook57

So I was going to go DC on the primer but right next to the DC was Rustoleum primer (in auto store). Rusto has a variety of the primers including a self-etching one.  I picked up one can of the Rusto high build and one can of the sandable primers.  Got to thinking, which should I use first? Each can states each is sandable, but the ''sandable'' one also says it's a scratch filler primer. Anyhow, they contained 50% more primer for a few cents more so I thought I'd give it a try; but thought I'd post here before I do. The paint I plan to use is a urethane, same stuff SWA uses on the 737 fleet 

Any thoughts David, Vince?

Mark

Mark,

not sure which David you were directing your question at but just in case, here are my thoughts:

DC makes a pretty good Polyester based filler primer. It is light gray in colour. Where I found it good was as a "leveler". Depending on the quality of your fuse, you might find that even after three rounds of primer/body filler sessions, you may still not have a smooth uniform surface on which to apply colour. This may be more common with glass fuses than with wood frames that have been glassed as the wood frame may have less imperfections after final sanding and spackling filler prior to glassing.

My Tipo fuse (well, the first of two) was of early vintage with a heavier layup and a 20 oz weight but most of all it had several imperfections as well as countless pin holes. I noticed the major things after sanding the glass but prior to priming so I filled the major flaws with an epoxy/MB putty. Rather than use the high built (filler) primer, I went with a sealing sandable base primer first as it is thinner and it serves as a "tool" to reveal the flaws for body work. I think I did three sessions with this darker DC primer (which might be similar to the Rustoleum (aka Krylon) primer you picked up). When dry, I used Bondo to fill the imperfections, waited for that to dry and then went over the fuse with 400-600 grit and a bucket of hot water for dipping. Each time, I sanded the fuse down to a smooth surface each time leaving a bit more of the fuse "primer and body filler stained". The fuse (or model) ends up looking like it has measles or something like that, all black and red...

After the third round, the fuse had barely gained any weight but I now had a sealed epoxy glass surface which was smooth, uniform and level. At that point I used the high build primer to produce a substrate for the color coats to adhere to but primarily to produce a nice contour in compound curve areas such as the stab and wing fillets, fin posts and wing bolt blocks. Basically any transition of materials in the construction. This primer actually reveals imperfections even better so one or two rounds of body filler were required here as well always with wet sanding in between. The wet sanding of the high build probably removes 50 to 75% of the primer but each time you end up with a smoother surface. In all, I think I did 3 coats of sealer primer and 3 coats of filler primer. The last of which was a light coat to provide uniform texture for the base coat.

I actually painted the base white color with Krylon appliance enamel (called an epoxy by them) which would be very similar to the Rustoleum version of the same. As with Crank's brother, it actually turned out quite nicely. The appliance white is crisp and clean which I was looking for as I was aiming to match white MK. The appliance white is considerably closer to MK than the equivalent LK paint which is cream and warm in color. But that's another matter.

If you are going to use urethanes as a base/top coat without a clear coat, I'd make sure that the surface on which you are applying the urethane is compatible with your particular paint. Urethane's are pretty robust and can usually be sprayed on to just about anything but for adhesion purposes, there might be more suitable primers for it. Usually the paint maker will recommend or have their own paint primer so that's what I would use unless they suggest that a high build primer like the Rustoleum is fine. Of course, you could also just do a test to check how things hold up.

In any case, I would likely test and use the "self-etching" primer as a sealing first layer primer. I don't believe the "self etching" aspect of it is intended to be useful when interacting with other primers but rather the substrate material (plastic, glass, metal, etc). The filler primer "high build" will likely be too heavy/dense to use for first layer prep work. The snap below depicts a typical approach to finishing a surface even though the picture comes from SprayMax's system.

There is supposed to be a better body filler than Bondo which is green in color. I forget the brand but Andy K. knows about it. The problem with Bondo is that it must be layered very thinly as it otherwise cracks as it dries (which you are likely familiar with). BTW, Bondo is also a polyester based body filler.

Hope this is of some help.

David.

PS Two cans won't be enough to produce a good prep on a glass fuse for base colors.

Edit: I had forgotten to upload the SprayMax system finishing process diagram below.

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/22/2012 9:59 PM   
doxilia



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Status: offline 		Vince,

if you're going to be doing full compound curves with the masking tape (e.g., going around the canopy front), the expensive automotive 3M stuff is worth it. NAPA sold it to me for $12.50 a roll but I know it can be had for $7-8 or so. The thin 1/4" green painters tape works quite well too but it will eventually tear and tends to "fold up" in little ridges when turned around a corner too tightly. The 3M vinyl stuff can be stretched around corners easily so one can even mask a relatively small circle for example. Use the narrow 1/4" kind.

Kevin's trim scheme is very nice. I'd keep any variations to it "flowing" without any sharp angles in the color separation. I think the key words are "rounded and arced" - it will keep it integrated...

David.

Mark (zedad71) might have some good painting/masking suggestions here - he's a master painter.

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/23/2012 8:55 PM   
crankpin


 

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Status: offline 		I chickened out. I was going to do compound curves, etc., and did start it. Too much time, so, running straight tape, up the fin, maybe get a yellow below this, then red. Took time today to run tape, and shoot. Going to let this dry for some time, too much stuff to do around the ranch, have to catch up. Next up, pull the tape, slice any corrections, wet sand, tape for next color. May try to fluid line from saddle to wing. Last picture is P6-1, flip the colors, fin will be wide stripe up.
Crank

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/24/2012 12:31 AM   
hook57


 

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Status: offline 		not sure which David you were directing your question at but just in case, here are my thoughts........................., body filler than Bondo which is green in color. I forget the brand but Andy K. knows about it. The problem with Bondo is that it must be layered very thinly as it otherwise cracks as it dries (which you are likely familiar with). BTW, Bondo is also a polyester based body filler.
Hope this is of some help.

David.
PS Two cans won't be enough to produce a good prep on a glass fuse for base colors.
[/quote]

David, (Dox),
I sure forgot to mention which David, I didn't think about it even though I replied to the other David!  Without a doubt I appreciate input from both of you anyhow. I also appreciate the time you took with this reply, very informative. I actually did get the white primer sealer but was not planning on using it unless I was not happy with the grey primer build up. I never thought to use the sealer first, but I didn't get the self-etching type as I didn't think it would be necessary (works great on metal though as I've used other brands in the past). This Tiger Tail 3 fuse is not as smooth as I would prefer, not at all like the GP Tipo I have. The TT3 has taken quite a bit of work via epoxy/micro and polyester filler to get it were I'll leave it alone. By the way, that green filler you mentioned is Evercoat, at least the brand I used was. I do use Bondo, but only sparingly and in very thin layers.
I haven't sprayed a RC plane in 30 years and don't have the space or the equipment (sold most of the spray paint stuff after I painted my RV-6) so I'm trying to get as nice a finish at the lowest cost with the least hassle for me (no hangar queens for me anyhow!) That's why I like that all these folks have mentioned and/or tried these various rattle can methods.
What I plan to do is to apply the build primer, take it down with 320, apply a second coat and take it down with 320, apply the scratch filler primer and take that down with 400 or 600. If I'm happy with it, I would then shoot the primer sealer and then top coat. The rustoleum auto paint caught my attention last summer, I redid an old scratch built Tiger Tail with LK which wrinkled to all hel!. I removed that, applied the Rusto primer, wet sanded, and then shot the Rusto high temp engine enamel (chevy orange) on it, and it came out surprisingly nice. Not extremely shiny, but not at all dull.
So when I saw the other Rustos (which look like a newer line of paints) I thought it worth the try. They (autozone) have it in an acrylic enamel too, in some pretty nice bright colors. If I use the urethane (think Imron), I have no worries about adhesion as we've applied it over all sorts of things at the hangar and it grips!
As for the quantity, I'll get a few more cans of the primer just to be sure I have enough on hand. However, the DC cans have 8oz of material but the Rusto has 12oz. So 2 cans of Rusto is 3 cans of DC, thus my thinking 2 cans to be enough. So, let me know what you think.

And Vince, my apologies if I've hijacked your thread, I'll move it unless you're okay with it (but I'll be back in here next build season as I plan to build my P-6 then). Thanks David, and you too David!

Mark

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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/24/2012 12:50 AM   
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No problem,not worried about thread hi-jackin', we all can learn something from more input.
Vince
not sure which David you were directing your question at but just in case, here are my thoughts........................., body filler than Bondo which is green in color. I forget the brand but Andy K. knows about it. The problem with Bondo is that it must be layered very thinly as it otherwise cracks as it dries (which you are likely familiar with). BTW, Bondo is also a polyester based body filler.
Hope this is of some help.

David.
PS Two cans won't be enough to produce a good prep on a glass fuse for base colors.
[/quote]

David, (Dox),
I sure forgot to mention which David, I didn't think about it even though I replied to the other David!  Without a doubt I appreciate input from both of you anyhow. I also appreciate the time you took with this reply, very informative. I actually did get the white primer sealer but was not planning on using it unless I was not happy with the grey primer build up. I never thought to use the sealer first, but I didn't get the self-etching type as I didn't think it would be necessary (works great on metal though as I've used other brands in the past). This Tiger Tail 3 fuse is not as smooth as I would prefer, not at all like the GP Tipo I have. The TT3 has taken quite a bit of work via epoxy/micro and polyester filler to get it were I'll leave it alone. By the way, that green filler you mentioned is Evercoat, at least the brand I used was. I do use Bondo, but only sparingly and in very thin layers.
I haven't sprayed a RC plane in 30 years and don't have the space or the equipment (sold most of the spray paint stuff after I painted my RV-6) so I'm trying to get as nice a finish at the lowest cost with the least hassle for me (no hangar queens for me anyhow!) That's why I like that all these folks have mentioned and/or tried these various rattle can methods.
What I plan to do is to apply the build primer, take it down with 320, apply a second coat and take it down with 320, apply the scratch filler primer and take that down with 400 or 600. If I'm happy with it, I would then shoot the primer sealer and then top coat. The rustoleum auto paint caught my attention last summer, I redid an old scratch built Tiger Tail with LK which wrinkled to all hel!. I removed that, applied the Rusto primer, wet sanded, and then shot the Rusto high temp engine enamel (chevy orange) on it, and it came out surprisingly nice. Not extremely shiny, but not at all dull.
So when I saw the other Rustos (which look like a newer line of paints) I thought it worth the try. They (autozone) have it in an acrylic enamel too, in some pretty nice bright colors. If I use the urethane (think Imron), I have no worries about adhesion as we've applied it over all sorts of things at the hangar and it grips!
As for the quantity, I'll get a few more cans of the primer just to be sure I have enough on hand. However, the DC cans have 8oz of material but the Rusto has 12oz. So 2 cans of Rusto is 3 cans of DC, thus my thinking 2 cans to be enough. So, let me know what you think.

And Vince, my apologies if I've hijacked your thread, I'll move it unless you're okay with it (but I'll be back in here next build season as I plan to build my P-6 then). Thanks David, and you too David!

Mark
[/quote]


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       Post #: 223

RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/24/2012 12:52 AM   
crankpin


 

Posts: 2527
Score: 103
Joined: 11/19/2002
Last Login: 6/19/2013
From: Hobe Sound, FL, USA
Status: offline 		No problem, don't mind at all. Most of what I am doing is de-jevu, if that is how you spell it.

Vince

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(in reply to crankpin)
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RE: Phoenix 6 - Start # 2 - 1/24/2012 3:09 PM   
crankpin


 

Posts: 2527
Score: 103
Joined: 11/19/2002
Last Login: 6/19/2013
From: Hobe Sound, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Pulled tape off this morning. Next paint, I am going to re-paint the fin and rudder, make all blue. Don't like the stripe going up. I am sure it would look OK, IMO, takes away the flow. Should get a Cub Yellow stripe under the blue, 3/4", white below, then red at the bottom, maybe 1" up.
Crank

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< Message edited by crankpin -- 1/25/2012 10:23 AM >

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