RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento

RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento
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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/14/2009 7:02 PM

still4given

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I think Iron Man described a fairly typical Gold class race and even a lot of Silver races. One guy who likes to fly fast and long and another who prefers to build his plane to fly a tight course and just make breakout. That's warbird racing. You can't find that in other styles because the planes are all too similar. I guess warbird racing isn't for everyone. Whether you want to build a 12lb bomber with two big nitro breathing 4 strokes or a super light fighter with a screamin' two stroke or something in between, in warbird racing, you are more than welcome. I wouldn't have it any other way. The present wing area chart doesn't stop anyone from building an unsafe airplane. Everyone needs keep safety in mind when putting something together.

It is almost settled in RCPRO that we will be dropping the wing area chart. We will have a minimum wing area since some feel that the judges will have a tough time seeing smaller planes, and a maximum weight to stay out of the Giant Scale realm. We will also be allowing electric power now that the engines aren't tied to wing area. If our guys want to race at SAMs or some of the other venues, they may have to build something special for that, but anyone with a warbird should be able to come race with us. Most of our Gold racers will not make only changes at all since they are happy with what they have. I do think we will start seeing more round nosed planes now that they can stick a big enough engine in them to make them competitive.

Blessings, Terry

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/15/2009 1:20 AM

Tommy_Gun

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Really, "almost settled"?

Where are these discussions?

I see no real action on them in here. http://www.rcpro.org/net/Forums.aspx?forumid=1901

Is there a secret RCPRO rule making group out there?

The elimination of the chart would lead to more problems than it would solve IMO. And the inclusion of a powerplant that does not have the limitations of "starting problems" at the beginning of a race are like mixing oil and water at this point in time.

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/15/2009 7:11 AM

still4given

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tommy_Gun

Really, ''almost settled''?

Where are these discussions?

I see no real action on them in here. http://www.rcpro.org/net/Forums.aspx?forumid=1901

Is there a secret RCPRO rule making group out there?

The elimination of the chart would lead to more problems than it would solve IMO. And the inclusion of a powerplant that does not have the limitations of ''starting problems'' at the beginning of a race are like mixing oil and water at this point in time.

Yes there is a secret group.

They are the CD's from all of the RCPRO racing venues. All of us have been discussing this for quite some time and most of us have presented the new ideas to our clubs and those who have participated at our races. So far, no one has had a problem with any of the rules.

As far as starting the engines before a heat, I don't see that as a problem. I have never used that as a means of eliminating a pilot. The reason for that rule is mainly to keep things moving. It is not designed to make things difficult for anyone. I have held off the countdown several times to allow someone to change a glow plug or something else that can be quickly remedied if it will help them takeoff. I'm not suggesting that SAMS follow us. Sorry if it seemed that way. As far as we are concerned, the wing area chart was written in an attempt to equalize all of the planes when at the time, they all ran head to head. We now have brackets with breakouts, so all that is necessary now is to build something that will run in the bracket you hope to compete in. For a long time, we have looked for a way to include electric power, but with the wing area chart, it was too difficult to match them up with the nitro engines. Now with no wing area/engine requirements, there is no reason not to allow electric. They will be restricted by the same breakout time that everyone else is. I know that some folks who already have a setup that they are happy with, and especially if they have been dominant with it, will feel a little resistance to change, but I feel that a change has been long over due and since YS has come out with yet another change that has made the wing area chart still more out of date, it seemed like a good time to address it. Once all of our CD's have had a chance to speak with the folks in their area, we will formulate a final version and present it. I showed some of the ideas here because I am interested in feedback and this is a good place to get feedback from warbird racers. I appreciate your input.

Blessings, Terry

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/15/2009 8:51 PM

MONGO44

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I think RCPro should try the elimination of the wing chart. Go for one year and see what happens. If problems arise and there is huge issues, you can always go back. I honestly dont see any problems. We run head to head in our classes and we have big 2-strokes against big four strokes. They are pretty close.

As for aircraft strength, that is up to the person to do the extra work and strengthen it. During the safety checks, if a person shows up with a stock airframe with a v8 engine, that is up to the safety officer to not allow that plane to fly if they feel it is unsafe. I know I cant afford to replace a plane every race so I persoanlly take the time to do the extra steps to make sure my planes dont come apart.

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/16/2009 1:04 AM

still4given

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Mongo,

Thanks, you said it very well. The wing area chart doesn't stop anyone from building a weak airplane. Most of the guys who aim at flying in the gold class know they are going to have to go above and beyond to build an airframe that can take the stress of making turns at 140 MPH. IMO, the only thing the wing area chart has done is stop folks from using large two strokes because the size of the required airframe made it too difficult to benefit from it.

I don't doubt that we may need to make some adjustments once we get underway with the new rules. We are open to that. We will be watching things closely to watch for problems but I must admit, I don't expect to see many. What I do think we will see is more .60 Size aircraft and certainly some electric power. My biggest hope is that we will simply see more guys getting involved now that the requirements are less stringent.

Blessings, Terry

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/16/2009 1:31 AM

summin

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Terry, I'm very pleased to see a group willing to try new things. The elimination of the wing area chart and the inclusion of electric airplanes is very forward thinking. Keep us informed how it works out.

People and organizations change because they have to, not generally because they want to. SAM races have such huge participation that only slight modifications to the rules need to be considered. Maybe that's a good approach considering that the pits are full as it is. If participation was waning, there might be more tolerance for greater change.

The WB races run by Kevin Norred and now James Gale have had lower participation in the fastest classes. They do benefit from change and alignment with the SAM rules. The Madera race attracted some of the SAM racers and it was a great time with big 2 and 4 strokes competing just fine with one another.

Mark

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/16/2009 5:46 PM

Jimmy Skids

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Hello all,

I have attached a new version of the wing area chart (thanks to Tommy for the scan, I did look it over to make sure he didn't put any round nose changes in). The newest version has the 2 stroke maximum raised to 1.6 and spells out every motor from a .40 two stroke to a 1.6 two stroke, and a .80 four stroke to a 2.4 four stroke.

The chart would make a WM Mustang with up to a 1.1 two stoke a valid combination thus making enough room to get guys flying the .75's in this model enough room to bump up even further if needed.

Does the chart still have holes? I'm sure the YS haters out there would say so, but all in all this should work for many more pilots than the old system.

Let me know your thoughts...........

Thank you,
Jimmy Skids

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/16/2009 5:58 PM

Jimmy Skids

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quote:

ORIGINAL: still4given

Mongo,

Thanks, you said it very well. The wing area chart doesn't stop anyone from building a weak airplane. Most of the guys who aim at flying in the gold class know they are going to have to go above and beyond to build an airframe that can take the stress of making turns at 140 MPH. IMO, the only thing the wing area chart has done is stop folks from using large two strokes because the size of the required airframe made it too difficult to benefit from it.

I don't doubt that we may need to make some adjustments once we get underway with the new rules. We are open to that. We will be watching things closely to watch for problems but I must admit, I don't expect to see many. What I do think we will see is more .60 Size aircraft and certainly some electric power. My biggest hope is that we will simply see more guys getting involved now that the requirements are less stringent.

Blessings, Terry

All,

I've already heard of talks regarding lipos and racing. One mid air right thru a lipo pack on an electric racer and you'll have a ball of fire headed towards who knows where. I would caution all CD's to be very prudent with regards to letting planes fly with Lipo's on board for our type of competition...... might make for a hot situation

. I believe AMA is already looking into making some rules/recomendations with regards to racing and lipos. I'm sure in a few years A123's or something else will make this viable, but at this point I don't see allowing electric power as an option.

Jimmy Skids

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/16/2009 11:48 PM

still4given

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids

quote:

ORIGINAL: still4given

Mongo,

Thanks, you said it very well. The wing area chart doesn't stop anyone from building a weak airplane. Most of the guys who aim at flying in the gold class know they are going to have to go above and beyond to build an airframe that can take the stress of making turns at 140 MPH. IMO, the only thing the wing area chart has done is stop folks from using large two strokes because the size of the required airframe made it too difficult to benefit from it.

I don't doubt that we may need to make some adjustments once we get underway with the new rules. We are open to that. We will be watching things closely to watch for problems but I must admit, I don't expect to see many. What I do think we will see is more .60 Size aircraft and certainly some electric power. My biggest hope is that we will simply see more guys getting involved now that the requirements are less stringent.

Blessings, Terry

All,

I've already heard of talks regarding lipos and racing. One mid air right thru a lipo pack on an electric racer and you'll have a ball of fire headed towards who knows where. I would caution all CD's to be very prudent with regards to letting planes fly with Lipo's on board for our type of competition...... might make for a hot situation . I believe AMA is already looking into making some rules/recomendations with regards to racing and lipos. I'm sure in a few years A123's or something else will make this viable, but at this point I don't see allowing electric power as an option.

Jimmy Skids

I just got off the phone with Ellis Hall, our District X rep and he said that as long as the lipo batteries are placed in a protective bag or something similar, He is fine with the use of them. He actually encouraged me to promote electric power in our races. I also asked about the need for a wing area chart and he said many of the clubs he has had contact with recently have dropped their wing area chart due to the use of arfs and such. He said as long as we still have breakout times in place that in his opinion the speed and safety are being controlled and he is fine with it.

Again, I am not suggesting anything for SAMS. You guys should do what you think is best for your venue. I only responded to this because Skids quoted my post in making his statement.

Blessings, Terry

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/16/2009 11:53 PM

MONGO44

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Not to throw another thing in the mess, but since we have a lot of Arizona, Los Angles, Victorville, Hesperian, Sacramento , Madera and Morgan Hill Racers on here, Can we work to establish some dates of races early on so we can get a schedule for those of us who want to travel to out of town races. I know there was several conflicts this year. I know it is tough to get things going, but I am looking to holding possibly a two day race in September/October/November at Madera and dont want to schedule it on top of someone elses race. Do any of the CD's have an idea as to what months at least and then we can follow up with exact dates as we get closer to the year?

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/17/2009 12:12 AM

Jimmy Skids

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quote:

ORIGINAL: still4given

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids

quote:

ORIGINAL: still4given

Mongo,

Thanks, you said it very well. The wing area chart doesn't stop anyone from building a weak airplane. Most of the guys who aim at flying in the gold class know they are going to have to go above and beyond to build an airframe that can take the stress of making turns at 140 MPH. IMO, the only thing the wing area chart has done is stop folks from using large two strokes because the size of the required airframe made it too difficult to benefit from it.

I don't doubt that we may need to make some adjustments once we get underway with the new rules. We are open to that. We will be watching things closely to watch for problems but I must admit, I don't expect to see many. What I do think we will see is more .60 Size aircraft and certainly some electric power. My biggest hope is that we will simply see more guys getting involved now that the requirements are less stringent.

Blessings, Terry

All,

I've already heard of talks regarding lipos and racing. One mid air right thru a lipo pack on an electric racer and you'll have a ball of fire headed towards who knows where. I would caution all CD's to be very prudent with regards to letting planes fly with Lipo's on board for our type of competition...... might make for a hot situation . I believe AMA is already looking into making some rules/recomendations with regards to racing and lipos. I'm sure in a few years A123's or something else will make this viable, but at this point I don't see allowing electric power as an option.

Jimmy Skids

I just got off the phone with Ellis Hall, our District X rep and he said that as long as the lipo batteries are placed in a protective bag or something similar, He is fine with the use of them. He actually encouraged me to promote electric power in our races. I also asked about the need for a wing area chart and he said many of the clubs he has had contact with recently have dropped their wing area chart due to the use of arfs and such. He said as long as we still have breakout times in place that in his opinion the speed and safety are being controlled and he is fine with it.

Again, I am not suggesting anything for SAMS. You guys should do what you think is best for your venue. I only responded to this because Skids quoted my post in making his statement.

Blessings, Terry

What kind of bag are you suggesting putting the Lipos in within a plane. I can understand for charging outside of a plane, but I've never seen Lipo on an electric plane inside a bag and I just can't see there being space or ability to take the weight. I'll try to talk with Ellis next time I see him and get his take, no matter what we would still have to run it by the VP for the waiver and from recent emails and converstations it looks like we may be bringing the max displacement down somewhat. Something like version 4.0 attached.

Jimmy Skids

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/17/2009 12:13 AM

Jimmy Skids

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MONGO44

Not to throw another thing in the mess, but since we have a lot of Arizona, Los Angles, Victorville, Hesperian, Sacramento , Madera and Morgan Hill Racers on here, Can we work to establish some dates of races early on so we can get a schedule for those of us who want to travel to out of town races. I know there was several conflicts this year. I know it is tough to get things going, but I am looking to holding possibly a two day race in September/October/November at Madera and dont want to schedule it on top of someone elses race. Do any of the CD's have an idea as to what months at least and then we can follow up with exact dates as we get closer to the year?

Kevin,
The SAMs planning meeting is in December. I'll try to send you the proposed dates once I have them.
Jim

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/17/2009 12:27 AM

MFLOOD3800

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Guys,
In the USRA we have run E-downers for 2 years with no issues. 80' Planes at 130+ MPH.
The set backs for each type of racing are there for the safety purposes. Yes lipos add an additional concern, but we havent seen anything yet in our 2 yrs of allowing the E guys to race.

I would've thought some of the biggest concerns wouldve been some one charging a battery in the pits in a hurry, to make a heat and putting too much to it too quickly. There he is surrounded by a lot more hazards than while in the air.

Ill be honest, Ive seen a lot of mid airs, and most of the time they go in quickly, not always, but most often. I feel the set backs are adequete to handle these concerns. Any mid air out of #1 should end up far enough away from racers and pits w/o a problem. A mid air at #2, with the set backs and off set course raced at RCPRO, it would still be a non issue. Not sure how you other guys set up your course. I know things can happen, but hey, we are racing and it is already a danger magnet.

I think it is time to open it up for the Lipos.
We are already running them in our racers for Rx set ups any way. Many of us already run them to get us thru the day , they are lighter than the other options. I have had them in plenty of quickies and club planes and now in 42% Giant Scale Rcaers.

Im not saying the concerns arent warranted, but I feel there are already safety guidelines in place (set Backs) that work for us even with these lipo situations. Id focus more on charging in the pits than mid airs!!

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/17/2009 12:31 AM

still4given

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids

quote:

ORIGINAL: still4given

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids

quote:

ORIGINAL: still4given

Mongo,

Thanks, you said it very well. The wing area chart doesn't stop anyone from building a weak airplane. Most of the guys who aim at flying in the gold class know they are going to have to go above and beyond to build an airframe that can take the stress of making turns at 140 MPH. IMO, the only thing the wing area chart has done is stop folks from using large two strokes because the size of the required airframe made it too difficult to benefit from it.

I don't doubt that we may need to make some adjustments once we get underway with the new rules. We are open to that. We will be watching things closely to watch for problems but I must admit, I don't expect to see many. What I do think we will see is more .60 Size aircraft and certainly some electric power. My biggest hope is that we will simply see more guys getting involved now that the requirements are less stringent.

Blessings, Terry

All,

I've already heard of talks regarding lipos and racing. One mid air right thru a lipo pack on an electric racer and you'll have a ball of fire headed towards who knows where. I would caution all CD's to be very prudent with regards to letting planes fly with Lipo's on board for our type of competition...... might make for a hot situation . I believe AMA is already looking into making some rules/recomendations with regards to racing and lipos. I'm sure in a few years A123's or something else will make this viable, but at this point I don't see allowing electric power as an option.

Jimmy Skids

I just got off the phone with Ellis Hall, our District X rep and he said that as long as the lipo batteries are placed in a protective bag or something similar, He is fine with the use of them. He actually encouraged me to promote electric power in our races. I also asked about the need for a wing area chart and he said many of the clubs he has had contact with recently have dropped their wing area chart due to the use of arfs and such. He said as long as we still have breakout times in place that in his opinion the speed and safety are being controlled and he is fine with it.

Again, I am not suggesting anything for SAMS. You guys should do what you think is best for your venue. I only responded to this because Skids quoted my post in making his statement.

Blessings, Terry

What kind of bag are you suggesting putting the Lipos in within a plane. I can understand for charging outside of a plane, but I've never seen Lipo on an electric plane inside a bag and I just can't see there being space or ability to take the weight. I'll try to talk with Ellis next time I see him and get his take, no matter what we would still have to run it by the VP for the waiver and from recent emails and converstations it looks like we may be bringing the max displacement down somewhat. Something like version 4.0 attached.

Jimmy Skids

I didn't suggest it, Ellis did. We will have to look into it. To my knowledge, none of the electric racing currently uses anything special. We don't have a fire danger at our field but I know some do. As far as I am concerned, We should all have fire extinguishers at the ready anyway.

I'm not a YS hater, I use them myself, but I must say, the charts you have made still give a decided advantage to YS 4 strokes.

You have had recent emails and conversations with the VP? Any chance I could get the contact info?

Thanks, Terry

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/17/2009 12:46 AM

still4given

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MONGO44

Not to throw another thing in the mess, but since we have a lot of Arizona, Los Angles, Victorville, Hesperian, Sacramento , Madera and Morgan Hill Racers on here, Can we work to establish some dates of races early on so we can get a schedule for those of us who want to travel to out of town races. I know there was several conflicts this year. I know it is tough to get things going, but I am looking to holding possibly a two day race in September/October/November at Madera and dont want to schedule it on top of someone elses race. Do any of the CD's have an idea as to what months at least and then we can follow up with exact dates as we get closer to the year?

RCPRO schedule as of now. We will most likely be adding a couple of dates for the Vegas/Utah guys once they have settled on them

Feb 13, 2010 Tucson, AZ
Mar 27, 2010 Speed World Phoenix, AZ
Apr 24, 2010 VVRC Park, Hesperia, CA
Sep 18, 2010 VVRC Park, Hesperia, CA
Oct 16, 2010 Speed World, Phoenix. CA
Dec 4, 2010 Tucson, AZ

Blessings, Terry

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/17/2009 1:00 AM

Jimmy Skids

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I haven't talked with any VP's yet, just from what I've been told it needs to go thru the VP to get a waiver if your field requires one. Our field does. With our minimal set backs, size and safety are a primary concern. We run a staggered course where turn two is set back a greater distance then turn 1 from the start finish line. Even with that greater distance we have seen planes end up where they shouldn't.

Our field has also burned to the ground and we have spent $30K to rebuild the runway after having a tanker truck park on it. We're located in the middle of grassfields which with a little wind and some fire tend to go up quickly. At our last race a nicad shorted out in turn two. It was during a gold race and before the race was complete there was a fire. I can only imagine had the battery been a multi cel lipo needed to power a 40 size plane what type of damage could of been done.

As mentioned earlier, racing by nature isn't safe. Any changes looked at must be done with safety being the primary concern. I would much rather have things be too safe then run the risk of having racing regulated to the point where it isn't worth doing. Self regulation is always better than regulation imposed by others.

Jimmy Skids

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/17/2009 3:09 AM

still4given

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We already have the waiver and it is tied to the breakout times, not the wing area chart. That is what I verified with Ellis. Like I said, SAMS is free to make whatever restrictions they like. It is their race. No matter what they decide on, I would still like to come race there. I'm not opposed to building something that fits their rules.

I am excited about the possibilities with our new rule changes. Anything being flown at SAMS, Madera, Morgan Hills, The Basin, and all of the current RCPRO warbird races should be able to come and compete. AWESOME!

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/17/2009 3:46 AM

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Seems to me that if a guy really wanted to race his electric plane he could find somebody to make a custom nomex bag to fit his plane.

When I flew High Power rockets we had custom nomex bags for our parachutes. They only cost about $20-30.

I like the look of the new chart Jim. Hopefully the CDs wil see the wisdom behind it and approve it.

I also applaud the RCPRO guys for giving run what you brung a chance. It will be interesting to see how it works out.

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/17/2009 6:05 AM

still4given

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I have asked around a bit and everyone pretty much said the same thing. The AMA has rules about how to deal with batteries. We will let those rules take care of it.

Blessings, Terry

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/17/2009 7:33 PM

MONGO44

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When will the RCpro Rules for Southern California be finalized and where will they be posted?

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/18/2009 12:43 AM

still4given

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From: Victorville, CA, USA
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I am hopeful they will be settled by the end of to this month. They will be posted on the RCPRO website and I will post a link here. They will not take affect until next season and the first race in Tucson.

Blessings, Terry

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(in reply to MONGO44)

Post #: 296

RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 11/29/2009 4:26 PM

ericnemesis

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Bonjour je suis français. Je vole sur Bearcat Rare Bear.
Bientot un nemesis NXT et 3 corsair

http://www.rcpilot-online.com/nemesis/Bearcat-Rare-Bear_r3.html

Eric

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Post #: 297

RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 12/5/2009 9:39 PM

Iron Dog

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Attached are a couple shots of the plane involved and the resultant damage from the battery shorting out, that Skids was referring to.

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Post #: 298

RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 12/5/2009 9:41 PM

Iron Dog

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A couple more:

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WARNING: High-nitro fumes cause an unusual form of mental debilitation resulting in excess expenditures on racing airplanes.

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Post #: 299

RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 12/5/2009 9:46 PM

Iron Dog

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From: Elk Grove, CA, USA
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Nothing really much left worth saving. I didn't hear about the engine, but believe the plane was a near total write-off.

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WARNING: High-nitro fumes cause an unusual form of mental debilitation resulting in excess expenditures on racing airplanes.

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