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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 3:58 AM   
sergio varo


 

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 4:25 AM   
CowboyLifesaver


 

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Status: offline 		My wing area is a little smaller than normal though. LOL It's clipped and mod'ed to look just like Strega when finished. Still have a ways to go. And a lot of money to spend. I was planning a Evolution 40 gasser for the 150. My 60 uses a OS 120 Surpass 1-2 pumped hybrid. Way fast up here at 4600 feet. Radar had 110mph level. Want the 150 way fast too. Was curious more than anything, thanks a bunch for the info.

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 5:09 AM   
eddyc


 

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Status: offline 		linear interpolation to calc the wing area for the 115

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 6:00 AM   
freakingfast


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eddyc

linear interpolation to calc the wing area for the 115


Easy, 531.5 sq. in.......if it were in the rules. No shown formula, just ranges given to keep it simple.

I hope the rules stay, it'll give the 110 and the 91's a chance, or dump them for the 115 to be competitive if the rules change.

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 2:25 PM   
still4given



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Status: offline 		If you are going to start calculating wing area then you will run into trouble because the ratio is not constant on the chart.


Examples

.80 FS > 400 sq in = 500%

1.10 FS > 513 sq in = 466%

1.20 FS > 550 sq in = 458%

1.40 FS > 585 sq in = 417%

1.80 FS > 650 sq in = 361%

I will be watching to see how you guys handle this. I'm pretty sure that the RCPRO "rules and regs" were patterned after the Sacramento rules with only a few exceptions. Since we are planning to revisit some possible changes in our wing area rules it will be good for me see what you guys do. I know at least some of the folks who fly RCPRO also go to SAMS. We don't want to be too different or the planes won't transfer.

Blessings, Terry

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 6:20 PM   
eddyc


 

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Status: offline 		True, the whole chart is not linear, but between 0.9 and 1.2 there is approx. 37 sq in increase for every 0.1 increase in engine displacement. So why not call it 531.5 Sq in for a 115?

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 7:09 PM   
still4given



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Status: offline 		So do we do this with all the "Tweener" engines? Where does it stop?

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 7:17 PM   
Jimmy Skids



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Status: offline 		I'm not sure if this will help or make things worse, but here is my take. The chart originally (If I'm correct and of course I'm wrong plenty of the time) was from the SWRA rules. Back then the chart had there were no 2 stroke 50's or 55's, and there were no 110's.... or 115's (which still doesn't exist - for now). I believe the chart was set up using the most common 2 stokes and they just doubled the displacement for 4 strokes. With that said I think that a change needs to be made. I would suggest the following with regards to the 2 and 4 stroke sides:

40/80 (and lower) 400 sq
45/90 430 sq
50/100 460 sq
55/110 490 sq
/115 520 sq
60/120 550 sq
65/130 565 sq
70/140 580 sq
75/150 595 sq
80/160 610 sq
85/170 625 sq
90/180 640 sq
95/190 655 sq
100/200 670 sq
105/210 685 sq
110/220 700 sq
115/230 715 sq
120/240 730 sq

What do you guys think? If there is enough positive we can all try to get these numbers worked into our own races and this would allow for groups that are close to be able to have pilots cross between the two. I went with 30 squares up to a 120 and then dropped to 15 squares after the 120. Basically split the difference for the 115 when it comes out.

Jimmy Skids


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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 9:35 PM   
Tommy_Gun



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Status: offline 		As long as Jimmy opened the can of worms, I'm going to throw out another possible consideration.
That would be that if a model of a radial powered warbird is being used, It is allowed to bump up to the next engine size for it's wing area.
Before anyone gets their undies all twisted in a wad, consider this.

A full scale Merlin P-51 stocker made approx 1500 HP give or take. Don't go gettin all techie on me with merlin dash numbers and such.
A full scale BMW powered FW190A ran 1700HP and could be boosted up to 2100 HP.
A full scale P-47,F4U,F6F etc had the P&W R2800 that made anywhere from 1800 to 2600(?) HP.
I think you all see where I'm going with this.
Bottom line the bigger cross section of the radial powered birds was overcome with BRUTE HORSEPOWER.

What do you all think?

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 9:51 PM   
MONGO44


 

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Just a quick thought. I hope I dont offend anyone as I havent raced in Sacramento for a couple years, but I plan on it for 2010 season.

Back in the early days when I raced in Sacramento, 4-strokes and 2-strokes where equal some what but when the Y.S. engine came into play, that made the 2-Stokes obsolete.  Also, there were no breakout times.  Hell, i won with a .61 Great planes P-51 one year. 

Now today, there are break out times so why is there a huge weight on wing area vs. displacement.   There should be a minimum and there should be a maximum.  If you go to fast, you loose.  If you go to slow, you loose.  I think opening the engine size up would allow more people to participate and allow those who are not familiar with 4-strokes to have a chance to win. 

Just a thought.



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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 10:02 PM   
Teddy_Bear


 

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Status: offline 		Kinda like the idea....


Interesting to see how others feel about it



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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 10:26 PM   
ChrisAttebery



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Status: online 		I have had the same thoughts as Kevin on this subject. Once you have a breakout time it becomes the primary regulator of speed. Every other rule becomes a secondary contributor. No matter what combo you come up with, if you break out you're done.





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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 10:28 PM   
Teddy_Bear


 

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Status: offline 		I for one wish there were more places with SAM type rules where we could go race. 4-5 races a year just isn't enough. I like the idea of spec, heads up racing. But for my warbirds it's gotta be a four stroke. I like the idea of a fourstroke spec warbird class but of course you could run the risk of diluting or causing just one more fraction in our pylon racing community.

I would love for instance to race at Gilroy or other clubs at least once a year. Rules allowing of course.

That's my ramblings. I'd love to race with each and everyone of you.



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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 11:06 PM   
MONGO44


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Todd,

You should come to the Madera race.   Same rules as Gilroy. 

We are looking to have over 40+ entries currently.  The 120 Warbird or Unlimited should fall into place somewhere for you.  The 120 Warbird is 550 sq in Minimum wingspan and 1.20 engine max.  You can run .91 to 1.20 engine.    If your airplane doesnt fit there, the Unlimited Class is the alternative.  You can run up to a 1.6 engine and minimum of 520sq in.   

For the Madera Race, the Unlimited pilots have allowed anyone from Sacramento or where ever  with 513sq's to participate with the 1.10 engines since this is where most of your aircraft fall.   We are looking at making a adjustment for next year to make this part of the rules.  I talked to Mark Sumich and he said the 1.10s are as fast or faster than the airplanes we are flying currently in unlimited.  

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 11:13 PM   
Teddy_Bear


 

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Status: offline 		I would love to however I am a bronze racer. This was my first year. Looking to go silver next year. Unfortunatly my .63 doesn't fall into one of you classes as far as I know.

But thanks for the invite.

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 11:13 PM   
delateurj


 

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Status: offline 		Long time flyer but just started pylon racing and if the rules allowed me to use the .75 AX World Models P-51 I have without having to change engines, you'd pick up another racer. There are 17 of these going to the Madera race so there is a potential pool of 17 other planes that would no longer be outside of the chart if it was modified.

Two cents from potential fresh meat.

- Joe.

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 11:18 PM   
MONGO44


 

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Status: offline 		All those stock Mustangs with 75 engines would make fast bronze planes and mid pack Silver possibly pending how tight you fly.  Jacob and  I took the World Models Mustang with  stock O.S. 61FX a couple years ago and broke out of Bronze everytime.   So a 75 would even be better.

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 11:20 PM   
JPGale


 

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Status: offline 		16, I am going to be putting together a YS115 spit for next years silver, the sound they make is awesome when they are racing.

James

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 11:21 PM   
JPGale


 

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Status: offline 		My strega with a 46 and pipe was breaking out of bronze everytime, if t-34's were allowed they would make a great bronze racer. I may end up taking the p-82 for bronze to at least 1 race.

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/1/2009 11:36 PM   
Jimmy Skids



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quote:

ORIGINAL: delateurj

Long time flyer but just started pylon racing and if the rules allowed me to use the .75 AX World Models P-51 I have without having to change engines, you'd pick up another racer. There are 17 of these going to the Madera race so there is a potential pool of 17 other planes that would no longer be outside of the chart if it was modified.

Two cents from potential fresh meat.

- Joe.

My proposed numbers would be 10square inches short, but maybe we start with the WM mustang (585 squares) and work from there. That way we could involve more. That's what these forums are about.... any other input?


*** edit *** 75 2 stroke and 150 Four stroke would have 585 and we would work the chart from there......
Skids

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/2/2009 12:43 AM   
ChrisAttebery



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Status: online 		Jim,

That sounds like a great start. My partner and I were talking about coming over but then I saw that his WM Dago Red with a stock 75AX (580 in2) is just over the limit. That was a show stopper for him.


Chris


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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/2/2009 1:15 AM   
delateurj


 

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Status: offline 		Yes. Starting with .75 on the WM P-51 would be good. Could fly with stock muffler in bronze or it sounds like with just changing out the muffler to a jett or psp thrust muffler, could run in Silver.

- Joe.

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/2/2009 1:23 AM   
Jimmy Skids



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Status: offline 		Chris,
I thought the WM Mustang wings were 585 on 40 size...... and I thought the Dago used the same wing..... I'm putting together a WM Voo doo right now and it looks the same.
Skids

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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/2/2009 1:30 AM   
BarryReade


 

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Status: offline 		I have a Strega with a TT PRO .61 and an Ultra Thrust pipe and on 15% it is very competitive in Silver.  Even with the stock muffler it was breaking out of Bronze..


quote:

ORIGINAL: delateurj

Yes. Starting with .75 on the WM P-51 would be good. Could fly with stock muffler in bronze or it sounds like with just changing out the muffler to a jett or psp thrust muffler, could run in Silver.

- Joe.



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RE: Two Day Warbird Race in Sacramento - 10/2/2009 1:36 AM   
BarryReade


 

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Status: offline 		Dago Red and the VooDoo are advertised at 480 in. The P-51-46 is 585 in and the P40 is 564 in
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jimmy Skids

Chris,
I thought the WM Mustang wings were 585 on 40 size...... and I thought the Dago used the same wing..... I'm putting together a WM Voo doo right now and it looks the same.
Skids



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