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Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 4:18 AM  1 votes
BreakingPoint


 

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Status: offline 		Ok, before I begin, I am a BIG fan of Saito engines!! Love them. I've been flying with both the Saito 82 and 100 and love them. I recently purchased a 125 to go on my Segull Extra 260 90 size. I had the 100 on it and it flew fairly good considering the plane weighs 9lbs. I put the 125 on the same plane and didn't notice any increase in power or performance over the 100!!

I was running a 15X6 apc on the 100 and getting 9,600 peak rpm with 30% nitro. Not too bad. The 125 on the other hand has the 16X6 apc and only spinning 8,800 peak rpm. This seems low. My first thoughts were, wow, I bet the 100 could spin the same 16X6 at that rate so I tried it. Believe it or not, the 100 spins the same 16X6 apc, using the same fuel at 8800-8900 rpms!! This means that the 100 and 125 are producing the same power!! I don't understand this. Do any of you Saito experts have any experience with the difference in these two motors?

I can tell you that I've been around motors for a while now and I know how to tune a motor and both motors are tuned properly. After doing some reading on similar threads, it looks like 8800 - 9000 is about average for the 125 using the 16X6. If this is true, then I don't understand where all the extra power is going.


The 100 is supposed to produce 1.8hp and the 125 at 2.2... Where is the 0.4hp going? The only benefit that I can see is that the 125 is using less fuel than the 100. I know this sounds strange, but if you look at the Saito-Information website under the fuel tank section you will see that the 125 uses less fuel, per SAITO. Very strange.

Anyway, I'm very disappointed with the performance of the 125 and am wondering if anyone else out there have noticed the same thing.


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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 4:26 AM   
beachbrada


 

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Status: offline 		I only own the Saito 125 and my engine with a APC 16x6 turns at about 9000 RPM's. The only thing I can think of is, does the 125 spool up quicker than the 100.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 4:29 AM   
BreakingPoint


 

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Status: offline 		I didn't notice any difference in the spool-up speed.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 4:34 AM   
beachbrada


 

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Status: offline 		The next thing you could try is see what the max prop both will spin before RPM's drop significantly. Try a 16x8 or 17x4 on both and compare. And check spool up speeds.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 6:26 AM   
daveopam



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Status: offline 		My 1.25 took long time to break in. I had a gallon through it before it really came to life. Mine also does not like the APC 16x6. It pulls it down and it never seams to get into it's power band. Many guys are using the 16x6 from APC with great results. I am just not one of them. I even tried 30% nitro with out much improvment. Then I tried a Mater Airscrew Scimitar series 16x6. This is a wooded prop. Now the spool up is instant and I gained 1,000 rpm. This was about a year ago. I have not tried the APC prop again. It could be the 1.25 will have a better time with it now. I just don't see the point. The MA seems perfect for it.

BTW I am at 2,100' ASL and running 15% power Master and a OS "F" plug.

David

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 6:59 AM   
beachbrada


 

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Status: offline 		That sounds about right, usually you get faster spool up and higher RPM's with wood prop since they are lighter.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 5:09 PM   
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Status: offline 		sounds like you have something going on with the 125

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 8:04 PM   
wind junkie



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Status: offline 		I too am a big fan of Saitos I own and operate over 10 of them.

One thing I notice however, is that in the larger sizes starting with the 125 is that the spool up is NOT as quick as with the smaller ones no matter how they're tuned or which prop is used.

I have two 100's and both of them make my 5-6 lb planes JUMP out of a hover with a 15x6 wood prop (doesn't matter which brand).

I have a 125 on a 7.25 lb OMP Fusion, as do 3 other guys in my club, and we all see a lack of "jumping" with the 16x6 props we use. The pull is strong in all flight regimes and the plane pulls through everything in nice pattern type style, but the "hyper" throttle sensitivity just isn't there and I think that's what your'e seeing. The 150, 120, and 180 also exhibit this lackluster spool up property. Once you get them moving they're fine and have lots of grunt, but off the line they aren't as good as say a YS 110 is with it's pressurized carb system.

My 72's and 82's and 100's are super in that regard, but I think the 100 is the last of the breed when it comes to spool up. I have yet to see the new 115 so I'm curious to see on which side of the fence it lies.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 9:37 PM   
bmitchell138


 

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Status: offline 		Could valve clearance or timing cause the engine to not acheive the desired 8800 to 9000rpms?

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 9:49 PM   
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Status: offline 		^^^ Yes. I find that the valve lash adjustment is an easy thing to do, so why not take the time to get it right. I would double check the lash and give'r time to break in. I have a .56 and .91 and I check both every gallon.


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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 9/30/2009 11:52 PM   
daveopam



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Status: offline 		WindJunkie, Have you tried the MA Scimitar? I have two 72's running APC 13x4W and a 82 running a 15x4 Zinger Pro. The 1.25 will spool up faster than the other three. At least mine will. I also have it on a 67" Fusion. It will jump out of a hover. Maybe I got a really good 1.25? Or a really light Fusion?

David

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/1/2009 12:04 AM   
BreakingPoint


 

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Status: offline 		It's definitely not the valve lash out of adjustment. I checked that before I did the head to head test between the 100 and 125 and both are adjusted properly.

I guess I could check the cam timing to see if somehow the cam skipped a tooth, but I REALLY don't think that's it since I'm running the same rpm as many others on the Satio threads.

If what "Wind Junkie saying is correct, that the 125 doesn't spool up as fast as the 100, and I've established that they both can turn the same prop at the same rpm, then why wouldn't the 100 be a better motor on any given airplane, since the 100 weighs 3.5 oz less. I of course don't have the answer, but I'm losing faith in the 125 as being better than a 100..

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/1/2009 1:36 AM   
beachbrada


 

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Status: offline 		I still wonder how both engines would do with the 16x8 prop.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/1/2009 3:08 AM   
Mikecam


 

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Status: offline 		My 125 turns the apc 16x6 at 9100 rpm peaked on 10%. Mine took about 2 gallons to get their as when I first tach it it ran 8700 rpm. It now has a 15x8 apc and hits 8800 rpm. Do you have the stock muffler on and any carb stacks?

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/1/2009 4:16 AM   
wind junkie



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quote:

ORIGINAL: daveopam

WindJunkie, Have you tried the MA Scimitar? I have two 72's running APC 13x4W and a 82 running a 15x4 Zinger Pro. The 1.25 will spool up faster than the other three. At least mine will. I also have it on a 67'' Fusion. It will jump out of a hover. Maybe I got a really good 1.25? Or a really light Fusion?

David

Yes, that's what I'm using the wood scimitar MA 16x6.

My best prop for the 72 and 82 is the MA 13x6. (also Scimitar but not wood. At first I thought I liked the wood ones better, but I think I like the plastic ones better still). Some guys like the 14x6 better on the 82 but I like the hyper throttle with the 13x6.

I guess my idea of "jumping" may be different thany yours. My best combo ever that makes everyone smile is a Mojo 60 5.5 lbs with the Saito 100 on a zinger 15x6 prop. Next best is any 4.5 lb profile with an .82 turning the MA 13x6. I really don't like the 4" props anymore cause they don't throw enough air over the tail for spins and other higher speed moves but they do "jump" better at the onset. When I was learning how to TR I liked the 4" pitch props a lot for that instant "get me out of trouble max thrust" but now the 6" pitch props suit my flying style much better.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/1/2009 4:46 AM   
BreakingPoint


 

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Status: offline 		I'm running the stock muffler and no carb stack. I may try an apc 16X4 standard, not the wide prop, to see if that allows it to spin up better. The 16X4 should be less load than the 16X6, so maybe it will come to life with that. If not, than I may try the wood props that you guys are recommending.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/1/2009 5:16 AM   
BreakingPoint


 

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Status: offline 		Have you guys noticed a difference in the fuel consumption between a 100 and 125. I noticed the 125 was using far less fuel than my 100, and even Saito says that the 100 uses more fuel.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/1/2009 3:58 PM   
Sonoran Flyer


 

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Status: offline 		I purchased one of the first Saito 125's. My experience matched yours. I live in an area that is hot all year, and see very poor performance during the summer months with the Saito 125. I was very disappointed in the 125 that I will never buy another. I had such good luck with the 100, and assumed the 125 would be the same, not. I believe there is a problem with fuel draw in the 125 when the engine heats up, that is why you get a lower fuel consumption. That also why I will not run the Saito 125 in the summer months performance is horrible. Runs great in the Winter and yes I retune the engine for changes in the weather. The engine just seems the run lean all the time in the summer, I can never get it rich enough.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/1/2009 5:59 PM   
daveopam



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Status: offline 		I suppose "jump out of a hover" is a relative term. I have an old Pizzaz with a ST 90. The jump from a hover is a little better than the Fusion. I recently flew a AW 42% Extra 260 with a DA-150. The Fusion will out vertical it all day long.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/2/2009 6:50 AM   
BreakingPoint


 

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Status: offline 		Has anyone tried the 16X4 standard apc prop? I just wonder if it would spin in the mid 9000 range with that prop.. I'm starting to think that the only advantage with the 125 is that it may spool up faster than the 100 and it drinks less fuel. Given that 30% nitro is $34 in my area, using less fuel is very nice.

I noticed that the OS 120 four stroke produces 1.9hp and spins a 16X6 apc at around 8800-9000 (per other threads on the OS engine).. This makes me think... If an similar sized OS engine can spin the same prop at the same rpm as the Saito 125, and the Satio 100 can spin at the same, then AM I CRAZY, but where is the 2.2hp going. The OS 120 only produces 1.9hp and the satio 100 produces 1.8.. This is starting to make me wonder if the the hp rating on the 125 is wrong.



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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/2/2009 4:25 PM   
jdan


 

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Status: offline 		I purchased one of the first 125's. I tried everything posible to get it to perform.I actually thought Saito would have recalled it.It is just a poor design.I can't believe they are still selling them.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/2/2009 7:29 PM   
wind junkie



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quote:

ORIGINAL: jdan

I purchased one of the first 125's. I tried everything posible to get it to perform.I actually thought Saito would have recalled it.It is just a poor design.I can't believe they are still selling them.


Look at it this way it's a lot lighter and more powerful than their 120 (which no one should ever buy from this point forward).

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/2/2009 7:57 PM   
BreakingPoint


 

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Status: offline 		Okay, I've spent a lot of time wondering where the 2.2hp is going on this motor and I may have figured it out. I'm a little slow!

Since HP is nothing more than TORQUE X RPM, then perhaps the Saito 125 is a very torquey motor that produces most of its power at lower rpm's. Thus, it may spool-up nice and fast, but never rev very high. After all, the max rpm on this motor is 10,000 and many of the smaller Saitos max out around 11,000-12,000.

It may be like trying to compare a car with a Chevy 454 big-block to the same car with a Chevy 350 small-block. The small block will rev higher and produce good HP, while the big block will not rev as high and make most of its power a lower rpm's. What does that mean to the performance of the car? Well, the big block will allow the car to accelerate faster and get up to max speed faster than the small block, but the small block will eventually rev up and reach the same max speed. That's why trucks have lower revving / high-torque motors and cars have higher revving / higher hp motors.

I'm thinking the best application for the 125 would be a heavy 3d or aerobatic plane that needs a lot of low-end power to punch out of a hover. However, it will not outperform a 100 with regard to speed. If you have a lighter airplane, or a plane that you need a lot of speed out of, then the 100 would be a much better choice.

I think the best use of this motor is applications where you have a heavy plane that needs good acceleration. If that's not your application, then the 125 is probably not the best motor..

The biggest benefit of this motor may simply be its ability to accelerate a heavy plane quick.. That's it.

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/3/2009 1:54 AM   
wind junkie



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Status: offline 		I agree. It doesn't want to rev, but it will spin a higher pitch prop with more authority than the 100.

My Fusion always sounds like an angry cow with all the vibration running through the airframe a lot like my Funtana with the 180. A lower pitch noise (for higher pitched props)

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RE: Saito 100 as powerful as a Saito 125? - 10/7/2009 1:06 AM   
gjeffers



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Status: offline 		my 125 out performs the 100 hands down.... 15% with apc 16.5x5

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