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The firewall is next. First step is to mount the motor. I am using a Plettenberg Evo. The firewall has a hole near center but offset to one side. I took a chance and thought that this should be the center of the motor axis, shifted to the left a bit to make up for the right thrust. The mount for the Evo has 3 threaded holes (4mm) on a 20 mm radius from the center of the motor. I used a ruler and protractor to mark all three holes. After I realized that the rear mount comes off the motor and could have been used as a template to mark the holes. The 4mm screws have to be short or cut so that they do not interfere with the motor spinning.
The first time I inserted the firewall motor combination into the plane it came about 1/2" short of where it needed to be. In addition I realized that the motor could only go in and out through the nose ring once the firewall was in place. The wooden nose ring would have to be cut back to allow this. Get ready to make a lot of sawdust. See the before and after picture of the nosering.
Next is to size the firewall to fit a bit more foward. I use a spinner back plate to keep centering the motor and sand down edges that are coming in contact with the fuse. There will be a space around much of the firewall, I just sand the areas that hit and eventually it fits better. Again get ready to make some dust and take some time gettting this to fit properly. Each trial fit should bring it a little closer to where you want it. I use a 1/16" spacer between the spinner back plate and nose ring. I like the firewall to go just a little further than I need it and push it back slightly. This way I am usually not deforming any part of the fuse. Again 30 min epoxy and microballoons were used to glue the firewall in place. Spinner taped tight to the fuse. This is drying right now. After it dries I will add glue/microballon filets tot he front and back of the firewall where needed.
Between cutting down the firewall to fit and opening up the air flow holes a bit the final weight of the firewall before gluing it in was 34 gms. It started at 41 gms.
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Score: 100 Joined: 2/6/2005 Last Login: 5/13/2013 From: Richland,
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First, thanks to Jason and Stuart for the pictures and discussion. You have both saved me a lot of head scratching.
Today I finally got the opportunity to unwrap everything and do a weigh-in. Fuse is 735g, wings are 404g each (both are the same), starboard stab is 122g, port stab is 118g, canopy 145g, rudder 64g, gear (both) 127g, wheelpants (both) 31g, CF Firewall + former + servo tray 71g, battery tray 34g, cowl 78g, wing tube 118g, stab tube 15g, bag of hardware 85g, balsa sticks + copper clad wire (what is this for) 12g. Total weight before servos, receiver, radio/servo battery, servo extensions, motor, ESC, motor battery, prop and spinner is 2,564 grams or 5.65 lbs. Anyone think I can make 5kg starting that heavy?
Stuart, what did your wings come in at?
Servo mounts are installed. Wing servo openings are 36.5mm x 21.0mm. Elevator servos mount in the stabs with openings of 27mm x 16.7mm.
Anyone have a guess at the function of the copper-clad steel rod?
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______________________________________________ Steve Sterling, NSRCA Dist 8
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Score: 100 Joined: 2/6/2005 Last Login: 5/13/2013 From: Richland,
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OK first big question. Does anyone think the front-end and nose-ring mount is strong enough to mount up an out-runner? Maybe stick in a very lightened "firewall" to stiffen the front-end a bit more (functioning as a former), but not attach the motor to it.
A friend did that with his Shinden, and hasn't had a failure in 2 years. I also did that with my Shinden, then backed out and installed a classic firewall after reading on RCU of failed front ends on other models.
This Valiant's front end is pretty beefy, and the CF should really make it strong.
Opinions?
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______________________________________________ Steve Sterling, NSRCA Dist 8
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It seems plenty strong for an inrunner like the Hacker. Just make sure to add the rear support. If you haven't mounted one before just search this forum for lots of examples. I did a Pinnacle build hear that shows one. If you put in a Hacker you do not need either firewall so you can save weight there. The rear support will be lighter than the firewall. The wire is to mount the rudder. The additional wood wrapped with teh wire. I have no clue yet
My wings are 401 and 414 gms. As far as total weight I haven't added it all up yet. I will try to do that later. The two CF formers with the cutout for the fuel tank also can be left out if going electric. Stuart
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Score: 100 Joined: 6/17/2006 Last Login: 8/16/2012 From: La Jolla, CA, USA Status: offline
The first Valiant in our area made it's debut yesterday. It was a perfect San Diego day for the maiden at the SEFSD all electric field on Mission Bay, sunny skies, and light winds straight down runway. Bruce Brown's father Chuck did the build, and as expected did a very neat job of it. After a thorough pre-flight, Bruce put in in the air. The plane was set up with the CG in the center of the wing tube, and required a couple of clicks of up trim. Bruce did a few passes, and felt so comfortable with it, immediately flew the Masters sequence. It was clear that the plane was just a touch nose heavy at this CG, so on subsequent flights he moved the Cg back to where it was about 1/18" behind the center of the CG. I did not get a chance to fly it, but Bruce was very happy with it. Tracking was very good, and rolling performance was incredible. Bruce is very happy at this point, and his flights looked almost competition ready right away.
Bruce didn't spend much time trimming using Bryan's "no mix" method (something I am very interested in), as he plans to put the plane on a diet before doing the serious trimming. The plane was built mostly using parts Bruce had on the shelf. Using these parts it came out quite a bit overweight. He mentioned it was around 12.5 pounds in this configuration. Bruce is planning on making some big changes in the setup. He currently is using the big Neu 1515 2Y inrunner motor with the large gear box, heavy home made motor mount, two large receiver packs, two switches, a batshare, and a few other pieces that are adding weight. He is planning on a new lighter weight setup using the Neu F3A motor, no switches, small Lipo RX pack, a lighter motor mount, and removing some of the trays that are unneeded in an electric setup. My guess is he will drop a pound pretty easily. Still, in order to keep this model under 5Kg looks like it would take some serious weight engineering during the build. I am interested to see how other people's builds go in regard to weight.
Below are pictures of Bruce and his new Valiant, the electronic setup, and of course the mandatory beauty shot.....
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The Valiants will be close on weight when built as electric. You will have to pay attention to what you stick in the planes. Here's some of the stuff I did on mine.
Servos: 9650 for elevators, BL551 for ailerons and BL352 for Rud (replacing the 9156's I put in for test flight) 8ch Fasst Rx, SA 6V reg, small Futaba switch and 730 TP Rx batt I used a .9 meter SA quad-wire extension back to the elevators which eliminated 2 wires going to the back (.9M works if the Rx is mounted at the back of the hatch area) Rx, Rx Batt, Reg and controller are velcro'd to the side of fuselage with small pieces The velcro straps for the main battery will be 1/2" instead of 1" Du-Bro 2" Super Light foam wheels with 3mm bolts for axles (didn't have time to order the cool aluminum axles ) 1" foam Du-Bro tailwheel on a wire tailwheel system no ball-bearing linkages anywhere Battery tray is some leftover pipe tunnel fiberglass board I had from some Integrals (which will be shortened now that I know the batteries go into the nose)
Things I have not done to lighten it:
Tru-Turn 3.25" Spinner APC 21x14 Stock gear and wing tube Du-Bro steel turnbuckles for pushrods
Total weight of this one is about 10.78lbs* *This is NOT the center hinged wing model. That adds a few ounces over the skin hinged wings I have on my first model which I predict to be right at 11lbs
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I believe that it is Bryan's design on the Valiant that both the wing, and stab incidence are set at the factory, and not adjustable. You only need to move the CG, and trim the elevator to end up with a zero mix plane.
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I don't know if the nose would be strong enough for an outrunner mounted to the nose ring. I could guess that if there was a rear support used it might hold up just fine. If it was only mounted to the front, I would say no. With the canopy reaching so far forward and the chin removable, I don't see there being enough nose, even all carbon, holding up over time to just a front mounted outrunner.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sgsterling
OK first big question. Does anyone think the front-end and nose-ring mount is strong enough to mount up an out-runner? Maybe stick in a very lightened ''firewall'' to stiffen the front-end a bit more (functioning as a former), but not attach the motor to it.
A friend did that with his Shinden, and hasn't had a failure in 2 years. I also did that with my Shinden, then backed out and installed a classic firewall after reading on RCU of failed front ends on other models.
This Valiant's front end is pretty beefy, and the CF should really make it strong.
Opinions?
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Score: 100 Joined: 2/6/2005 Last Login: 5/13/2013 From: Richland,
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1bwana1
I believe that it is Bryan's design on the Valiant that both the wing, and stab incidence are set at the factory, and not adjustable. You only need to move the CG, and trim the elevator to end up with a zero mix plane.
I want to believe! Bryan's numbers have always been good, but I've had bad experiences before with "set at the factory" that were a long ways away from Bryan's numbers. Like my Shinden was about 1 degree different between wing halves, and neither side was close to Bryan's 1/2 degree positive.
Of course, Composite Arf didn't build the Shinden so it isn't fair to compare them.
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______________________________________________ Steve Sterling, NSRCA Dist 8
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I won't tell you every plane will be perfect. After all we are all human. But I would suggest before you knock yourself out, fly it and then decide if you need to go through the work of adding adjusters.
< Message edited by JAS -- 10/5/2009 6:04 AM >
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Firewall is finished. Motor goes in through nose ring. Easier to attach screws through firewall when the chin cowl is removed and looking in from the bottom. Weight of the fuse so far with firewall, rudder tray and added former is 803 gms.
The plane calls for a 3 1/4" spinner. I like the Great planes spinners for electrics. Fairly light with a lightened aluminum backplate. (CF may be lighter) cheap $12.95 and looks good as long as you don't take a starter to it. Weight is 60 gms.
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Score: 105 Joined: 12/26/2006 Last Login: 6/18/2013 From: DENHAM SPRINGS , LA, USA Status: offline
Good Advise SGSTERLING! you are correct. you can see my trim advise on this airplane in a prior post ,
You have to come into this airplane project with a fresh thought proccess as my trim philosophys are different from others. A fresh set of Expo settings and expectations will be required so be prepaired You will rely more on rudder for perfect rolls not , an aft CG However, all axis will have more power with less sensitivity and there will be a more precise control of the airplane throughout all flight axis.
As Jason Stated no one is perfect But Comp Arf has stived to my sitisfaction to be very precise with my settings So If Jason and I are Satisfied I hope you will be too Jason and I have far more influence and quality control with this Model and have worked hard with Comp Arf to assure the best model. I will have periodic updates on my website , Some of My Tweaking and ramblings on the Valiant But ,I`m totally redoing it right now so please be patient lol Bryan
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In regards to weight, this is where I am right now. Unless I am forgetting something major, my total weight of current construction and remaining parts is 4864 gms. That is with the Plety motor CC HV-85 speed control, 8411SA on rudder, 9411SA on ailerons, 3421SA on elevators, True RC or Thunderpower pro lite V2 5000 mah batteries.. Not included in my calculations are aileron and elevator extensions, servo horns (not sure what I am using) and the battery tray/hold down. I doubt I will use the whole "plank" that was provided. I may make it out of something else as well. (also canopy mounting is not done yet.)
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Score: 100 Joined: 6/17/2006 Last Login: 8/16/2012 From: La Jolla, CA, USA Status: offline
sc204, What will you be powering your RX with, will you have any switches or regulators, ball links, pushrods, prop, spinner, it all adds up. Looks like 5KG may be getting pretty tight.
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I'll post all my numbers when I get a chance to see what I left out, but battery, prop, spinner, switch and regulator are already in there. Pushrods, and horns are not. Stuart
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Current weights of components and items to be used so far. Fuse in current build state with canopy, chin cowl and rudder 1103 gms wing tube 113 gms Rt wing 414 gms Left wing 401 gms Stab tube 16 gms Rt Stab 122 gms left stab 121 gms Gear wheels pants complete 189 gms Landing gear bolts and washers 7 gms Spinner 3 1/4" Great Planes 60 gms Motor with prop washer and nut Plettengerg Evo 582 gms APC prop 22 x 12E (largest that I would use) 121 gms CC HV-85 ESC 118 gms Aileron servos 9411 SA 78 gms Rudder servo 58 gms Elevator servos 60 gms Receiver Fut R6008HS 14 gms Battery pack TP 730 2 cell 34 gms Jacio switch harness and regulator 22 gms MK tail wheel 13 gms Rudder cable estimate 20 gms TP 5300 pro lite 2 battery 1188 gms
Total weight 4854 gms. Items not accounted for are the battery tray and hold down. push rods, control horns (I am not partial to the single phenolic horns except on rudder), connectors on motor and speed controller, construction weight for attaching canopy. Anything else I missed?
So weight will be close. Areas that can be addressed to easily lose weight . Chris Moon sells the YGE speed controller which is about 2 oz (2 oz savings) but more expensive than the CC. He also sells some carbon fiber props that are lighter. See F3Aunlimited.com. Smaller APC props can also save 20 to 30 gms (1 oz) over the 22 x 12E.
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OK its been a few days since I have been able to do any work. First off the APC 20.5 x 14 weighs about 100 gms. That is a 30 gm savings over the 22 x 12 (over 1 ounce)
The canopy attachment is next. There are multiple ways to attach a canopy and many will work. Jason showed pictures of Bryan's setup. My preference is pins at the rear of the canopy and 1 or 2 screws at the front. If the canopy was a perfect fit then 1 screw at the front center would work fine. My canopy fits pretty well but needs to be pushed into place a bit, so I will go with 2 screws up front. The kit comes with some phenolic pieces to be used for alignment tabs. It also comes with a piece of 6mm CF rod and 4 CF sleeves. The only use I can find for this is alignment pins for the canopy. I think the inclusion of this is a carry over from prior pattern planes where these pieces were used for the belly pan mounting (Impact). In reality 6mm CF rod is a little overkill. I used a couple of short pieces of 1/8" cf tube supported by a couple of pieces of 1/8" light ply. The CF tube was inserted perpendicular to the rear canopy surface. Mating sockets in the rear of the canopy mounting area were made from 1/4" teflon tube (1/8" ID). The teflon tube was used to make the pins slide in easily and resist wear. The teflon tubing was glued into a piece of balsa balsa which was sized to be a slight friction fit between the back of the canopy area and the former behind it. The holes in the fiberglass fuse are a little oversized to allow the pins to position the balsa holding the sleeve in the right place while the glue was drying. I used a little 5 min epoxy and held the canopy in position while it hardened.
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The front of the canopy will be held down by 2 3mm socket head screws (12 mm). First job was to make a sleeve for the screw to slide into. One of the sleeves for the 6mm CF rod worked well for this. Starting with a 9mm piece it was shaped to fit in the front of the canopy between the inner top and inner lower lip. A piece of thin fiberglass sheet (used for hatch covers) was glued to the bottom of the carbon tube to provide a solid surface for the screw to pull down on. This was tacked in place with a small amount of 5 min epoxy and the reinforced with epoxy/microballoon mixture.
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