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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/20/2012 12:27 AM

wjcalhoun

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Ortho

I have flown the R70 /DLE20 with 17x6, 16x8, 15x10, and 14x12. She gets better with speed! The flight experience was tame with the 17x6, even with high rates. She would climb on the vertical forever, but did not move. The 16x8 was better, but i really like the 14x12. The airframe is clean, and she moves well. My low idle is about 1550 rpm, and even with a 12 pitch prop, she settles onto the runway very well. Vertical performance with the 12 pitch prop is still strong, although not unlimited. Vertical performance with the 10 pitch prop was essentially unlimited.

Remember that the efficiency of high pitch props diminishes at low speed, so the theoretical airspeed from a high pitch (10-12") prop will not correspond to the actual airspeed at idle.

Low rate rolls at 95-100mph are QUICK - probably 720*/sec or so. I have not done a high rate aileron roll at high speed yet. I am guessing that she will roll 3 1/2 to 4 rolls per second on high rates (up to 1440*/sec), which is crazy. [I have had only one other plane that rolled that quickly - an Aeroworks Extra 260 (.60-.90) with an OS AX 1.20 up front.] I would not think of snapping her (the R70) at that speed, because it might cause catastrophic airframe failure.

I do have a 13.5 pitch prop for her, but will get my EagleTree data with the 12 pitch first.

Bill

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 4:00 AM

orthobird

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Flew her again today. used the 16 x 6 prop. had not flown her in 3 months since i was working on my 40% 3W Extra 330S. she is now ready and hopefully maiden will be tomorrow, weather permitting.

When i flew the revolver today, she flew the best ever, and the saito 125 was working the best ever. inverted flight was also better than ever as well. i did change the pushrods for the elevators, don't know if that has anything to do with it. I fly my plane at two fields. one is about 50 minutes away, and it is an AMA RC plane field. it has a great pit area and runway is really good. the other place i go to is an official FAA registered airport out in the middle of nowhere, which seems abandoned for now. there is a cropduster there, but it is functioning during spring and summer. i know the owner and the pilot, and they have given me permission to fly there. they have a 4000 feet long runway that is about 9 feet wide. the crop-duster pilot tells me he will take the plane off on the runway, but he lands on the strip of grass next to runway. the grass runway has tall grass on it. he states by landing on the grass, it helps to make the rubber on the wheels last longer. today, i flew at the field that is 5 minutes from my house. i was there alone, as always, no one is out there, LOL. i landed the plane on runway, and once it lost speed, and was about to stop, it must have been going 10 MPH, the plane came off the runway and into the clay dirt, and the main landing gears snapped off. i just finished gluing them again with 30 minute epoxy and fiberglass powder mix.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 4:32 AM

microdon2

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Orthobird -

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXNM65&P=ML + 1/4 ply + blind nuts = gear that will never fail.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 4:57 AM

Ernie Misner

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Orthobird, you are an excellent writer. I was wanting more!

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 12:49 PM

orthobird

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Thank you microdon, but the landing gear was not the area of failure, i should have clarified this. The area of failure was in the plywood plate that is glued to fuselage. The landing gear has not bent or broken. It was where it was attached into fuselage. this has been 2nd time that has happened. I have seen on this thread where this has been described in past, and some of you have come up with some great fixes. in particular i really like the solution whereby a aluminum or light metal "L" shaped bracket is used to reinforce this area. My only concern with this is that if it is too stiff and will not fail, then if impact is great enough, the damage may occur in airframe. I may be wrong to think this.

Dear Ernie, i am glad you enjoyed it. today, i will go to the flying field to see if i can maiden the 40% Extra 330 S. Weather today is calm wind, current temp is 32 degrees. high for today will be 54 degrees. wish me luck!!!

That is my 5 year old daughter next to plane, just to give you an idea on the size of the plane. and she is at the 90th percentlie for her age with regards to her height.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 2:16 PM

wjcalhoun

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Ortho
Your failure point is THE common failure point for R70 gear. As you say, it is not the gear, it is the LG mounting plate. In addition to the reinforcing you have done, you might think about a 1/8 or 3/32 plywood plate almost the width of the fuse, and extending from the firewall aft to the first former behind that - perhaps 6 inches long. Epoxy that to the structure 'outside' the fuse, cover with monokote, and you are good to go.

The plate transfers the bending moment in the pitch axis at the LG mounting plate to more of the airframe, and yet it is still wood, and will generally fracture before causing catastrophic damage to the airframe. I share your concerns about beefing up the LG area TOO MUCH, because there must be a designed point of failure that causes the minimal amount of damage - kind of like a shear pin (designed failure point) in heavy duty lawn, garden, and snow equipment.

BTW, i am using that approach on my R90 as well. For a big plane - 19# - that main LG area does not look strong enough for me.

Nice Extra! Enjoy flying her.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 2:33 PM

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it don't look like servo's i ask Santa for are under the tree.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 3:05 PM

wjcalhoun

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OTOH, it is only 22 Dec, not 24 Dec

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 3:56 PM

microdon2

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Ortho -

Along the lines of what WJC said, I add an additional floor (I think it's 1/8, or 5/32) inside the fuse, just aft of the stock blind nuts. I cut a hole in the gas tank box for easy access, then insert two halves of wood (cut in half so that they can slide in) and 30 min epoxy them down. (It adds a little weight, but l think it's worth it.) Then I drill four holes in the gear in a box formation, not straight line (like the stock). Then you drill the holes in the fuse from the outside, using the gear-holes as a guide. Then add blind nuts. I use the Dubro gear cause it's incredibly strong and resilient. Then I paint it white (fuel-proof paint) and add three colors of trim to match the plane.

I've crashed a few Rev 59s' and 70's and this floor \ gear setup is the most solid part of the plane. The gear also seems to flex enough to absorb shocks (I've had some rough landings, too). I can understand wanting to keep the stock gear cause they look nice, but I find the split-gear and in-line bolts an inherently weak design.

When I do get my Rev 90 I'll have to find another gear, though, as Dubro doesn't make one that size. Maybe I'll invest in carbon fiber.

Mike

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 5:32 PM

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My Revolver was delivered today! Truly psyched about getting her setup and ready to take to the air. Not a Christmas present, my birthday, which is actually Christmas eve, but celebrated usually one week early.

I have, however, been reading this thread vociferously. When I read about the LG issue, my decision is to use a combination of @microdon2's suggestion (the Dubro one piece LG) and @ wjc's suggestion to beef-up the exterior and the interior with ply, as

I do not understand why this is still being mfr'd this way? I do love the original LG looks, but being split in two-halves, with bolts going only in one direction, seems to be the proverbial "failure looking for a time to happen". Additionally, on the aluminum piece, I totally agree with the lack of a "weak-point" premise that has been pointed out. I am sure it will serve the structural need, but upon a hard landing, or something else, your going to rip a lot of wood out that fuse and possibly the firewall.

On another point:

@wjc: I also read that you believe, as I do, that a good, strong (and hopefully fast) servo would be best for this plane, especially with it's speed and maneuverability. I was thinking along the lines of:

1). http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&W=001604909&I=LXUZ80&P=K

2). http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&W=001604909&I=LXRWS8&P=K

You also wrote that you calculated the required amount of torque needed (for the rudder @ 38* @50mph. Where can I find those formulas and more like them, as I love engineering stuff. Thank you for all of your help, previously and now.

BTW: @ Microdon2: Great looking LG.... nice paint or cover job.... I may steal your idea

Thank you in advance to all who reply. I appreciate it greatly.

Don

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 5:39 PM

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I think something to consider it the fact the center layers of chinese lite ply are best thought of as glorified saw dust? There is no strength when it comes to plates like the one we're talking about.

The other piece is that it's virtually impossible to fasten something like that to the firewall. When it touches down hard, whatever is there will let go at that juncture, pulling that plate out by it's roots. That's why that alum. mod works so well. It fastens that LG plate to the firewall without fear of failure.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 6:05 PM

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@ahicks, Ahhh, now I see what you mean. I was thinking about how to make an angled aluminum piece, when it hit me that they may carry something close to what was shown in that an earlier thread/solution. I headed over to HD, and found this... your thoughts???

It most likely will need some trimming, which is easy enough, but strength, I am not sure. They have MANY sizes, so I just picked one, so as not to dirty up this thread, just go over to their website and search "aluminum angle".

Your opinions on which would be best fit, is greatly appreciated, if any.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-100337439/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=aluminum&storeId=10051#.UNXzZW80V8E

I went to Lowe's website as well. They have some( a half dozen or so), not as many as HD, but they are ALL listed as lightweight, which is good for our application, but bad (maybe), in terms of strength????

Too many decisions and options, makes for a confused man... well, OK, I am ALWAYS confused, but that's another story.

Thanks,

Don

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 9:10 PM

wjcalhoun

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Don:

Here is one of the torque calculators out there

http://www.mnbigbirds.com/Servo%20Torque%20Caculator.htm

Cannot vouch for it in all details, but it seems to work.

I always install servos that will supply 75-100% more torque that is required. That is just me; i don't like pushing my equipment to the limit. For the R70, i think either of the servos you have would be fine. i have some HS5645 in a 25% Extra and they have been rock solid.

Another alternative would be Savox:
http://www.amainhobbies.com/product_info.php/cPath/61_100_2167_2169/products_id/183310/n/Savox-SC-0252MG-Standard-Digital-Metal-Gear-Servo

I am flying some 1256TG in my AW Extra 300 50cc, and they are quick and strong; the 0252mg are about the same torque as those you have looked at, and are a bit quicker and a bit cheaper.

To ahicks point, there is value it tying the main LG plate to the FW, from the standpoing of resisting the pitch-axis torque; i have done that using triangle stock on the inside, but light aluminum angle is certainly another way to do it. The ply i use is quality stuff, but you do have to be careful.

Best wishes
Bill

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 10:10 PM

VictoryRoll

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Hi Bill!

I can always count on you, my friend. Thanks for the calculator site... BUT !!!!!....... I have to say.... Those servos are unreal ! Awesome numbers (spd/torq) and at a TOTALLY fantastic price... half the price ! ... that's a no-brain'r to me! I don't have any servos (except throttle & lower torque servos for a 40 size) purchased for this plane (Revolver 70), so I am definitely going with them! I may even buy two for the elevators, instead of one to handle both sides, should I go that route.

Question:

Do you have any suggestions on getting the wings on more easily than I just tried... two person job, and really, really tight fit. Also the alignment nibs/holes do not line-up from wing to fuse.

I am kind of disappointed at the condition of the plane, as delivered. It has many, many wrinkles on every surface, and a dent in the fuse. But, for the price, for such a nice looking and a nice flyer/performer, it is money well spent. I might even buy another mid-2013 as a gasser. Can't wait to get her built up, but going to take my time while the snow flies and put skis on my Big Stik for winter flying while I build.

BTW, I am thinking of actually removing the ailerons and re-attaching with either HD Nylon (pinned) hinges ( http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXD941&P=ML

Robart pinned hinges ( http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXET57&P=ML) I own the 1/8' Robart's, but believe they are not strong/hefty enough for KE spins and the like.

. Your thoughts? Anyone's thoughts??? I have always had a tad bit of trouble making sure the Robart hinges are lined up perfectly, do you have any suggestions?

I "think" the Nylon Hinges will hold if I use a "pinned"- type attachment in addition to epoxy, which I usually do, by putting three (3) toothpicks (sharp-pointed down through three (3) of the available six (6) holes (ex. In through the wing half, through the nylon hinge, and then partially, not fully through the other side of the wing half balsa, in a pattern like X - O - X

O - X - O

>========O < cotter pin

O - X - O

X - O - X

I hope that shows the configuration OK...??? If not a take a pic to better depict, just let me know.

Thanks Bill, I always appreciate and trust your opinion (esp. on over-sizing servos as it has always served me well).

Don

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 10:34 PM

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Um, back to the alum. for just a second. I made mine from a piece of roofing flashing (sheet metal)? The alum reinforcement is roughly the same size as the ply. landing gear plate, with maybe 1/2"-3/4" extra on the front - to allow that to be bent over at a 90 degree angle, and fastened to the firewall? Much lighter/tidier than a piece of extruded might be. That bend easily accomplished reasonably neatly in a vice.

The flashing is sold in rolls at HD or Lowes. It's kinda stiff, not real easy to bend with your fingers.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 10:44 PM

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flew her again today twice. this time, engine started to misbehave, had to bring her down, tried to tune her, but no luck. will have to tune her at home. i think it may be glow plug. seems like when the pressure from muffler to gas tank comes off, where it idles well, but when you accelerate, it rpm's up, then one or two senconds later, starts to rev down.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 10:53 PM

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Well that drawing/depiction was not what I was looking for.... so dang hard to align crap, even w/ tabs or spaces...

anyway,

here is a pic of the holes I use to "pin" the nylon hinge to my two surfaces....

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/22/2012 10:59 PM

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Ooooo..... I have some of that.... actually in 3' X 2' sheets..... awesome idea @ahicks, thank you so much! Can you give me an idea of the size of the piece you used ? how far did you wrap(up the firewall) and (along the bottom of the fuse? All of your help is truly appreciated, and I thank you.

Merry Christmas to you and your loved ones, and a very, very Happy & Healthy New Year!

Don

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/23/2012 12:19 AM

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Don:

There are a bunch of moving parts in your post:

1 - condition of the fuse; if she has breaks or is no longer straight, have Tower replace it because it will not fly correctly. If it is just wrinkles, it gives you practice with your covering iron

2 - anti-rotation pins not aligning. THIS IS A BIG DEAL, because the anti-rotation pins define the incidence of the wing; that needs to be RIGHT, but more important, the two sides have to be IDENTICAL. I can check mine, but i would presume with a semi-symmetrical wing, the incidence would be ZERO. To achieve that, the center of the leading edge, and the center of the trailing edge should be EXACTLY the same distance from a datum line. You can use the upper surface of the fuse between the FW and the aft end of the cockpit as your datum line. Measure carefully, set the wing so that those distances are equal, and then very carefully enlarge the AR holes until the index pins fit securely. I would use a round hand file, rather than a power tool. Repeat on the other side. If the incidence of the two wings differs, the plane will never fly correctly. You can try to trim it out, but there will be a speed sensitivity to the roll trim. BAD. Incidence could be as much as 1/2* positive. You can figure out how much higher the leading edge should be with trigonometry. {sin(1/2*) x chord length at wing root = difference between LE and TE}

IF ANYONE KNOWS THE PROPER INCIDENCE OF THE R70 WING, PLEASE LET DON KNOW!

3 - wing fit onto the carbon tube. RESIST THE URGE TO SAND THE TUBE. wax it, install and uninstall, etc. The balsa in the wing will wear slightly, and it will get easier.
4 - on the savox servos, go for it. Many of us find that dual elevator servos are worth the small amount of additional work to build mounting structure aft to hold them. Many posts detail differnt approaches, but building structure is not so hard once you get over the mental hurdle of cutting into the (perfectly good) covering aft. On a related note, use a metal gear servo for your throttle servo also; plastic gears are said not to hold up to the vibration of a gasoline engine.
5 - ailerons. You will hear different opinions here. One group may say - fly it and see; if they fail, fix it. If you are comfortable landing a plane with a sick aileron - really not too big a deal - then that may be reasonable. Not all of the CA hinges have failed. I personally cut them out, and replaced them with the 1/8" robart hinge points (your second option, only the 1/8, rather than 3/16, which are really for 29%, 50cc sized planes). I used 6; two closer together at each end of the aileron, about 4" apart from each other, and the other two (or three) spaced out. I don't personally think that you need the strength of the nylon pinned hinges (your first option). For adhesive, i recommend epoxy. I have not tried aliphatic glue, but i have tried gorilla (polyurethane) glue. i have had failures on elevators, rudders, and ailerons with gorilla, so i no longer trust it. never a failure with 30 min epoxy.

On aligning the robarts hinges - they are a bit fussy. I tape the aileron to the wing, flex it, and use a sharpie to mark both the TE of the wing and LE of the aileron at the same time - that gets me correct alignment along the length of the aileron. I bought the robarts tool. Some don't like it, but i find that it exactly centers the drill on the edge of the surface. Once you have that (position, and centering) it is just a matter of keeping the drill 90* to the TE in both directions. I counterbore the TE of the wing, so that the knuckle of the hinge point can be buried up to the pin. That helps to minimize the gap between the aileron and the wing.

I think that covers it. Best wishes for a successful build. Thanks for the well-wishes; merry Christmas and happy new year to you and your family as well.

Bill

< Message edited by wjcalhoun -- 12/23/2012 1:31 AM >

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/23/2012 1:25 AM

wjcalhoun

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Ortho
Might be lean on the low end if it stumbles on accelerartion; colder temps in LA, like in TX, mean that the air is denser, and we have to richen the needles. Might want to open the HS a touch as well.

Best

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/23/2012 3:16 AM

orthobird

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sounds good, i will do that.

thank you

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/23/2012 8:30 AM

Ernie Misner

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Free shipping on the Savox servos too.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/23/2012 4:09 PM

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Both revolvers 59 & 70 have LG issues. By what I hear in the 50cc thread is not better in the Big Sister.

Ortho, that is a big bird, or your daughter is really small. Make sure you come back and tell us about the maiden.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/23/2012 11:49 PM

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lopflyer, there you are! how are you? wondering where you were!!

i've been flying the revolver again. had not flown much in past 3 months while i was working on the 40% extra. went to maiden her yesterday, but the engine would not idle down. even with the throttle mouth 100% closed, the motor would still run. luckily i have a kill switch on her. it must be some form of air leak in carb, between reed valves box and crankcase or somewhere. will keep you posted.

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RE: Larger Revolver - 12/24/2012 1:47 AM

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Ortho, what size engine are you using on that beast?

I have not being active flying or in these pages much either lately. Women are having babies like rabbits in these part of the country.

Merry Christmas to you and your family

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